That's how these things go, and I'm very glad they do. If people can reevaluate something years later because either they have changed personally or because they now value sth. more or less within a relative framework, it just means that the fandom is alive and not as entrenched in their positions as it often seems. For me too, my fandom started waning after 2000: the latter seaons of VGR, then ENT (after the initial novelty value wore off), then DSC all struck me as "inferior Trek" when they were new. It was only reignited with PIC, LD, and SNW (to an extent). And because of this renewed interest, I started watching some of the shows I had given the cold shoulder to before. In that way, I've come to MASSIVELY reevaluate Voyager, which I now love as much as the other Berman Trek shows (it helps if you watch a show on its own terms, not in direct comparison to another show running concurrently, which was DS9 then), and my estimation of ENT has at least SOMEWHAT improved. Which means: while I currently dislike DSC with a fiery passion, that isn't to say that in the future I might not go back to it (I certainly will!) and then perhaps I will recognize things in it that, with some distance, then will register differently. That was my whole point in initiating this thread asking about legacy. It's hard to say in the moment, but it might be fun some years down the road to go back to this thread, see what you posted about PIC and check if you still feel that way. (Different franchise, but related sentiment: I might have to go and delete some of the disparaging tweets I made about Star Wars' Andor show last fall (or simply go by the old German saing "Was interessiert mich mein Geschwätz von gestern?") because it only took me half a year and one rewatch to recognize the brilliance of that show, which I simply didn't see during the first run. It can be that quick and simple.)
VGR did suffer very much when pressed up against DS9. It called for greater serialization, more recurring characters, keeping the damn crew compliment of the ship consistent especially when deaths occurred, and less reset button. But VGR has some amazing stand alone episodes (especially what Joe Menosky can do given a standalone), and the closest thing to a TNG or DS9 you could find would be... VGR. So once Star Trek offerings went from oversaturated to sparse, I could see it picking up renewed interest. And, being episodic, people could jump around on streaming, picking the better episodes and not worrying so much about having to see all 170ish eps in a row. The variety also benefits from new writers coming in every few seasons... Bryan Fuller, Nick Sagan, Michael Taylor... ENT benefits from being a 21st century show. Shot in 16:9 HD, it already looks and feels far less dated. Season 3 has a serialized arc that mostly holds up, and season 4 is one of the best Berman Trek seasons. Season 1, while episodic, at least has a fresh take on being in space. Season 2 is just a grind with way too many mediocre bottle shows, but if you just rewatch the good ones, it can be a fun experience. And again, the closest thing to TNG or DS9 that you could find would also be ENT... the audience overlap is pretty great. Could DISCOVERY be similarly rehabilitated in the eyes of the fandom? Well, I grumbled about aspects of VGR and ENT, but aside from "Threshold" I kept watching. DISCOVERY, not so much. Tonally, its seasons are incredibly different. The show seems designed to appeal to more narrow demographics on streaming than a VGR or ENT did on broadcast UPN wanting the 18-49. I'd really like to see what market research CBS has on Star Trek fans, and what percent of the fanbase the show appeals to, and how many new viewers it also brought in. It certainly makes some groups happy while polarizing others. How the show ages might depend on the reception of its season 5 and what direction SFA follows afterwards. Now, PICARD? Season 1 I think will always be polarizing, inspiring deep appreciation or animosity, depending on the viewer. Season 2 I could could see actually aging somewhat well given time, especially once collective head canon coalesces around what actually happened in some of the plot point A to B to C head scratchers. Season 3? Well it's a natural follow up watch to FC.
In the sense of watching "the highlights". While INS, NEM, and for me season 1 would be the complete deep dive.
Ooof, gotta agree to disagree on that one. I think so. Its couth for people to dislike things until the newer things come along. Voyager, Enterprise, the Star Wars prequels have all seen a resurgence lately in fandom. Not everyone mind you, but the vitriol spit at Enterprise in 2001 was intense and it has largely subsided. Give it 20 years. I'd be surprised if there weren't some who turned their opinions around on Disco.
ENT Season 4 is the best ENT Season. For the best Berman Season in general, probably DS9 Season 4. "But Rick Berman ignored DS9!" Okay, then TNG Season 6. "But what about TNG Seasons 3 and 4?" I'm going with something where Gene Roddenberry had aleady died, just to be safe.
Yeah, still agreeing to disagree on that one. Just because we have to connect everything in that season to something else in the franchise doesn't make it good. I honestly thought season 3, while certainly dark, was pretty damned good.
Yup. That's one of my biggest lessons in entertainment. Stacking show against show, franchise against franchise, is yes a normal thing but not something I found helpful. I enjoy the different Trek shows, or aspects of them, for different reasons. And it's all fun for me. That's more important than continuity or whatnot.
I honestly think I'd take season 3 of Enterprise over season 3 of Picard, any day. Right from the first episode you know what the stakes were. You could feel the stress the entire crew was going through, especially Archer. You could absolutely buy that he was a good man, forced to do things that went against his very being. It also introduced many new aspects to the franchise, such as the MACO's and the Xindi; a genuinely interesting new "race". Plus, it did what Voyager always should have done and showed the cost of all these things on the ship. By the end of the season, the NX-01 looked like it had been through hell and back. Every impact felt like it could have a consequence. That was the season I fell in love with the NX-01. She earned her name and her place in "history" that season. I felt more watching the NX-01 launch from the belly of that Xindi Aquatic ship then I ever felt watching the Enterprise-D launch from the museum. I'm sure I'm I the minority on this one, but screw it.
None of that was haphazard. All of those events flowed logically from one-another. They were just things you didn't like.
Ok, at the risk of trending "downstairs" again... I'd say there are some major differences between VGR, ENT, and the SW PT vis a vis DISCOVERY and the SW ST. VGR and ENT were made by pretty much the same team behind TNG and DS9. Sure, UPN dragged them in some odd directions, and having Brannon Braga be "the one" was an odd choice compared to all the other TNG veterans on hand to promote, but the differences aren't that stark (especially structurally) and they were chasing much the same audience. Star Wars prequels were still made by George Lucas. Yeah, he should have cast a wider net with the screenplays and director chairs, and he did target a new young audience, instead of the kids of the early 1980's, but it wasn't exactly a rupture from where ROTJ left off, and the PT is far closer to the OT than it is to the ST. The gulfs between VGR/ENT & TNG/DS9 and the Star Wars OT & PT aren't that wide once you expand outward to NuTrek and the Star Wars sequel trilogy, most of which weren't made by people with prior connections to the franchises (minus Kasdan and yes Terry Matalas). The SW SQ tried for a soft reboot. I'm sure everyone doesn't want yet another relitigation of the divisive TLJ, so let's just acknowledge that and move on. Now to DISCOVERY... how it ages will depend on multiple factors. Just how accessible it is to new audiences is an open question, especially as it isn't as kid friendly as anything from the Berman era, likely won't be airing all the time on TV, and instead will be buried with all the back catalogs of streaming shows. It'll also depend on how the wider culture changes over time, and if DISCOVERY proves to have been made for "future audiences", or instead dates relatively quickly as the online progressive cultural zeitgeist of the late 2010's recedes from memory. Could it get a reassessment from legacy Star Trek fans? A hypothetical future Star Trek project 20 years from now would have to be pretty far from established Star Trek concepts to see DISCOVERY looped in more with ENT than 2040 Trek. But again a lot of that depends on how the culture war sorts out and generational succession works its magic. Plus, there's the elephant in the room of AI. What if in 20 years you can feed a Star Trek comic book or novel into an AI program, and have a pseudo-live action episode come out? The OTOY test sequences incorporated elements from the 1990's Marvel Pike centered Star Trek: Early Voyages comic. At that point it would be very hard to have a common point of reference, and Star Trek would be hyperfragmented across multiple fandoms. I think TNG season 6 would outrank season 4 in more people's minds if it wasn't for the concentration of mediocre episodes at the beginning of the season. And yeah, DS9 season 4 is crazy on the rewatch when you realize almost every single episode that season hit the mark, with next to no examples of mediocrity. At the end of day, all debates about NuTrek ultimately peak with "you just didn't like it".
Yeah. Like, I get that the whole "mystery box" style of story telling in popular these days, but it can be maddening at times. The more I think about Picard season 3, the worse I think I feel about it. It just felt like a series of situations, loosely tied together, that Picard and Riker keep falling into...... First they fall into a prolonged nebula battle, then they fall into a Changling conspiracy plot, then suddenly they fall into a sequel to The Best of Both Worlds/First Contact. Picking up all their old friends along the way.
I was thinking ENT4 was the prototype for PIC3, with all its canon mining. ENT3 is the prototype for NuTrek. Season long arc. High stakes. People hating it.
@cal888 , most of your commentary is fair. I disagree with a lot of it, but its fair. I do have to argue this point... First, there's the issue of copyright. If this is a fan doing that then the IP lawyers will shut that stuff down. And quickly. Second, if its an official "production," I hope that day never comes to pass. Because ultimately that means that the only entertainment we will have is nostalgia-based. Why tell a new story with new actors when we can tell another story with the AI programs of William Shatner, Leonard Nimoy and the rest of the 1960s Enterprise crew? No thank you. I can ultimately live with what happened in Picard Season 3. Its far from my favorite but its okay. The sort of stuff you reference? No thanks. It will mean the stagnation, not only of Star Trek, but every other franchise and entertainment known to man. Why hire new actors when you can have Humphrey Bogart and Scarlett Johannsen in their prime sharing the screen? No thanks.
The Star Trek novels and comic books have a much lower cost of production compared to animation or live action. So what happens when AI might allow comic books and novels to suddenly punch above their weight? Now scale this up to the Star Wars EU, or hell the massive back catalogs of DC and Marvel. Commentary about the OTOY test videos have said that is likely coming in the next 10-20 years. What happens when live action, video games, comics, novels all slowly merge together? The human element would become ever more important to stick out. So you would want human actors, writers, all the below the line people... sometime to think about anyway in light of the writers strike. Now that should be an interesting thread in "Future of Trek"!
Or, imagine people being able to create their own entertainment suited specifically to them, holodeck style without the actual holodeck...
Because there are a lot of people who don't like nuTrek but confuse their feelings of subjective dislike with objective considerations (such as alleging that a sequence of events is "haphazard" when in fact they all flow from each other logically and plausibly).