The tomato is a fruit. Hard stop. So why does everyone, including the Supreme Court, think it's a vegetable?
Answer: It's more savory that sweet. IOW, it's the way it's different that matters.
Is Starfleet Military?
- Thread starter Prometheus59650
- Start date
Actually, citizenship of the Federation is typically required to enter into Starfleet, however there is a procedure to bypass this requirement on a case-by-case basis:
NOG: That's right. I want to be the first Ferengi in Starfleet. Now, who do I see about getting a uniform?
SISKO: Nog, if you want to become a Starfleet Officer, you have to attend the Academy.
NOG: All right. Where do I sign up?
SISKO: It's not that simple. As a non-Federation citizen, you need a letter of reference from a command level officer before you can even take the entrance exam.
NOG: A command level officer? You mean, like you?
SISKO: Well, yes. Like me.
NOG: Then you'll write the letter.
SISKO: I'll think about it.
NOG: Thank you, Commander. I know you'll make the right decision.
SISKO: Aren't you forgetting something?
NOG: Keep it. Consider it a token of my appreciation.
Not exactly jumping through hoops is it? XD
18 is internationally considered the dividing line - even recruiting under 18 is not considered the done thing.
Somewhat true.
In the sense that deploying military personnel under the age of 18 is considered unusual and is legally prohibited in many jurisdictions.
However, it's perfectly possible in many jurisdictions for children under the age of eighteen (even 15-16 in some roles) to apply for and be accepted into training with parental permission.
Given that some education standards appear to be somewhat higher in the Federation, at least for star students (I'm pretty sure calculus isn't normally taught to fifth graders in the IRL in the US, I know it isn't in the UK), then I'd consider it possible, even probable, that roles other than "direct combat" are available to trainees under the age of eighteen with parental permission.
Well, that probably depends on the officer in question (Sisko certainly put Nog through the ringer for his letter) and exactly what the officer in question puts in the letter.
My point is that a waiver/authorisation is needed, therefore the default position is that non-Federation citizens are not permitted in Starfleet (similarly to felons typically, though not always, being barred or at least restricted in the military/law enforcement roles that they can apply for IRL).
It's interesting, since as far as I can recall, we never saw something like this scene:
Picard: In 35 minutes, we'll intercept the <x>. Seems we are about evenly matched, and the battle could go either way. It would be decidedly wrong to expose all civilians aboard to such a dangerous combat situation. Number one, do you agree with my assessment that a saucer separation would be in order?
Riker: Yes sir.
Picard Ok then, <pushes intercom> All hands, all hands, this is the captain. Going to separate the saucer section exactly 10 minutes from now, mark. All Starfleet officers report to their battle station posts, including those currently off duty, all civilians evacuate to the saucer section.
<glances at Wesly> You too. Go to the saucer section.
Wesley: But, Sir, I belong with the crew, I'm an an acting ensign!
Picard: I know, but you're also underage. Which means that it's my duty to keep you out of harm's way as much as possible. You may be acting ensign but as a minor, you haven't taken the Starfleet Oath yet. Now go.
Then again, in Best of Both Worlds we do see Riker give a collision course command- apparently with all civilians still aboard? (I can understand there was no time at that very moment to evacuate them, but couldn't they have taken a single minute to do so before engaging the cube or giving chase to it to en route to the Sol system ?)
Picard: In 35 minutes, we'll intercept the <x>. Seems we are about evenly matched, and the battle could go either way. It would be decidedly wrong to expose all civilians aboard to such a dangerous combat situation. Number one, do you agree with my assessment that a saucer separation would be in order?
Riker: Yes sir.
Picard Ok then, <pushes intercom> All hands, all hands, this is the captain. Going to separate the saucer section exactly 10 minutes from now, mark. All Starfleet officers report to their battle station posts, including those currently off duty, all civilians evacuate to the saucer section.
<glances at Wesly> You too. Go to the saucer section.
Wesley: But, Sir, I belong with the crew, I'm an an acting ensign!
Picard: I know, but you're also underage. Which means that it's my duty to keep you out of harm's way as much as possible. You may be acting ensign but as a minor, you haven't taken the Starfleet Oath yet. Now go.
Then again, in Best of Both Worlds we do see Riker give a collision course command- apparently with all civilians still aboard? (I can understand there was no time at that very moment to evacuate them, but couldn't they have taken a single minute to do so before engaging the cube or giving chase to it to en route to the Sol system ?)
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It's very much like the 18th century model. The idea that some people have that a captain in the age of sail was a law unto himself is just wrong. In the Royal Navy there were minor offenses for which the the law allowed the captain to order punishment on his own authority, just as now in the US forces there is Article 15 NJP. For more serious crimes and pretty much everything involving officers, though, a court martial of at least five captains had to be assembled. You can read the 1749 version of the legal code: An Act for amending explaining and reducing into One Act of Parliament the Laws relating to the Government of His Majesty's Ships Vessels and Forces by Sea.
That's why the Bounty mutineers were locked up on the frigate Pandora for months to be transported back to Britain for trial. That ship was wrecked, and the survivors eventually made it to court a year later.
Well, the writers and producers could have directed the depictions of Starfleet toward something that better backed up that single statement of Picard's, but they didn't.
Nah. Starfleet does a lot that NASA could never do. But Starfleet doesn't really do anything that wasn't done by navies in the 1800s.
Service in the US armed forces doesn't require US citizenship, either. There are over 30,000 non-US citizens serving today.
Well, no, but Nog had the advantages of his friendship with the Sisko family and his service to the station. He wasn't just some random alien who waltzed in and asked for a recommendation.
Plus...he was a one-legged crazy man!
Starfleet's main role is space control, deterrence, spacelift, and power projection for the purpose of defending the Federation. Those are maritime military roles not Coast Guard, NOAA, NASA, and the Public Health Service Commissioned Corps. Each and everyone of those roles were done by the Enterprise-D. The modern equivalent would be the US sending an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer to conduct freedom of the seas passages, participating in anti-piracy patrols, going to a foreign port when US citizens are threatened, and emergency response to maydays and natural disasters, and so on.
Indeed. Much of Starfleet screams space navy but it being a "military" is apparently a bridge too far...?
And yet there has been at least one very long thread on this board where several people argued that it's not even a "space navy ", regardless of whether this also makes them a "military" (I've noted previously that this was something of a debate for centuries IRL).
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/starfleet-is-a-space-navy-military-fleet.286724/
Debate will probably last till the moment the Starfleet Charter is actually signed
Indeed and I have followed those threads with great interest. At this point in time it comes down to personal bias in terms of the terms military and navy and whether or not they are appropriate to Star Trek.
100% yes.
It just brands itself non military to appeal to the soft headed Pacifists that make up the Federation council.
The core Federation worlds seem to have a extremely high standard of living. It's citizens are likely fat, happy and smugly arrogant like most societies become during easy, prosperous times. To those naive fools, they likely don't even think about what happens outside Federation borders let alone imagine threats to their paradise.
Thus if starfleet was purely a defence forcethen it would be desperately under resourced and under supported by the Federation council and the average citizen.
You can see this attitude in the undiscovered country, starfleet was mothballing and decommissioning ships before even the ink dried on the khitomer accords.
Thus starfleet conducting more roles than just military as it can thus justify its existence better to a naive and ignorant Federation council so far up its on self righteous arse it can't comprehend future threats.
By the time of TNG theonly conflicts starfleet was involved in were the localised border wars with the cardassisns, talarians and tzenkathi. Most of starfleet likely never saw combat in these theaters and thus you had fools like Riker and Picard pop up with attitudes like starfleet not being a "military".
Officers and enlisted that did serve in the border wars seemed to have a far more militant attitude such as sisko ,O'brien and even Janway.
Dominion war would likely have come as a shock to many poor fools. Petra Abedeen in Lower decks likely got her cynicism of starfleet for such a reason.
This attitude probably dates back to the foundation of starfleet with most of earth being happily under the protection of vulcan. Why bother with a military when the more advanced vulcans have our backs? So starfleet even then had to justify its role and continued funding by showing it can do more than fight wars.
Still at its very core......it's a military.
It just brands itself non military to appeal to the soft headed Pacifists that make up the Federation council.
The core Federation worlds seem to have a extremely high standard of living. It's citizens are likely fat, happy and smugly arrogant like most societies become during easy, prosperous times. To those naive fools, they likely don't even think about what happens outside Federation borders let alone imagine threats to their paradise.
Thus if starfleet was purely a defence forcethen it would be desperately under resourced and under supported by the Federation council and the average citizen.
You can see this attitude in the undiscovered country, starfleet was mothballing and decommissioning ships before even the ink dried on the khitomer accords.
Thus starfleet conducting more roles than just military as it can thus justify its existence better to a naive and ignorant Federation council so far up its on self righteous arse it can't comprehend future threats.
By the time of TNG theonly conflicts starfleet was involved in were the localised border wars with the cardassisns, talarians and tzenkathi. Most of starfleet likely never saw combat in these theaters and thus you had fools like Riker and Picard pop up with attitudes like starfleet not being a "military".
Officers and enlisted that did serve in the border wars seemed to have a far more militant attitude such as sisko ,O'brien and even Janway.
Dominion war would likely have come as a shock to many poor fools. Petra Abedeen in Lower decks likely got her cynicism of starfleet for such a reason.
This attitude probably dates back to the foundation of starfleet with most of earth being happily under the protection of vulcan. Why bother with a military when the more advanced vulcans have our backs? So starfleet even then had to justify its role and continued funding by showing it can do more than fight wars.
Still at its very core......it's a military.
Yes.
Propaganda and the cognitive dissonance it can cause can effect anyone.
Picard and Riker are a product of the society they were brought up in.
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