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Researchers at the University of Malta have pointed out that only a small amount of hazardous particulate matter comes from car exhaust pipes and is mostly generated by tire and brake friction. Switching to electric vehicles may not help solve the issue, so what should we do?
It's the CO2 - and other such gaseous emissions - that are the main concern with gasoline (aka. petrol) cars. Particulates are more of an issue with diesel engines.
Now, modern cars are MUCH cleaner than the cars made even in the late 70's to early 80's. Pollution control systems are far more effective than they were. Plus, where's the old leaded gas - gone...
EVs are not all that they are cracked up to be, far too expensive, have serious usage and reliability issues (bursting in flames at random doesn't help) and since there STILL isn't a universal charging solution - they can be a real pain at times.
Oh, and don't get me started on self-driving tech...doesn't work.
I don't trust any Driving Automation code where it isn't "Open Source", publically validated & tested.
Sorry, as a fellow Software Engineer & Software QA guy; I have ZERO faith in Silicon Valley or main land chinese coders who are slipshod at best, incompetent at worst.
EVs are not all that they are cracked up to be, far too expensive, have serious usage and reliability issues (bursting in flames at random doesn't help) and since there STILL isn't a universal charging solution - they can be a real pain at times.
It Costs nearly $16k to replace a Tesla Model 3 Battery pack.
One battery rupture from junk on the road, and you either foot the bill, or HOPE Insurance pays it or the Warranty covers it.
If your Insurance covers it, your premium will most likely sky rocket in response.
For $16k, you can get alot of brand new Engine Swaps or plenty of used cars.
PHEV's with a small battery range of:
50 mi | _80 km @ GVWR of the vehicle, for up to 35-50% Battery degradation from the original specified Initial Maximum Battery Capacity
- OR -
62 mi | 100 km @ GVWR of the vehicle, for up to 35-50% Battery degradation from the original specified Initial Maximum Battery Capacity
Porsche already proved that PHEV is the best solution for Racing Performance with the Porsche 919 Hybrid EVO.
So far, nobody has beaten their new Time Attack Lap Time on their run of the Nürburgring.
On 29 June, Porsche ran the 919 Evo on the Nürburgring, and Bernhard recorded a lap time of 5 minutes, 19.546 seconds, breaking the May 1983 outright record of 6 minutes, 11.13 seconds set by Stefan Bellof in a Porsche 956
Porsche defeated their old Time Attack Lap Time by nearly a minute, a record they held for ~35 years. And they broke their own record again with Timo Bernhard behind the wheels. One of the greatest Race Car Drivers of all time.
So far, nobody has broken their new & currently held Nurburgring Time Attack record, not with a "Pure ICE" or "Pure BEV" vehicle.
The real solution for the future for either:
- Automotive Racing Performance
- Reducing Environmental Pollution at a reasonable cost
- Keeping the majority of the Automotive Supply Chain in tact without wrecking the economy, with a proper job and utilizing every resource. 100,000 people in France alone have their livelihoods threaten with a ICE ban. 501,000 people across the EU alone will lose their livelihoods.
Imagine how many more jobs globally will be affected.
Synergestic PHEV's would keep jobs on both the EV & ICE sides of the logistics train.
- Using just enough Lithium & other base battery resources so everybody can benefit from it.
is a Synergistic Hybrid where one axle is powered by ICE, the other axle is powered by a BEV.
You don't need more BEV range when the vast majority of Americans & Europeans don't even travel that far round trip every day.
Nothing I specified would take any new technology to be designed.
It's just a regulation by government issue for automotive design and packaging everything to Min/Max what we have.
The advantage of my Synergestic Hybrid ICE|PHEV vehicle is that you get a:
AutoMobile
Medium Battery Bank built into your AutoMobile
Medium Generator built into your AutoMobile.
All in one package. So no matter the vehicle you drive, you have all that at your convenience.
If the BEV section of the car fails for whatever reason, you still have the ICE side to make it work.
If the ICE section of your car fails for whatever reason, you have the BEV to get you to a repair shop.
If both sides fail, you are SUPER DUPER unlucky to have both fail at the same time. Why didn't you maintain your vehicle properly?
It's the CO2 - and other such gaseous emissions - that are the main concern with gasoline (aka. petrol) cars. Particulates are more of an issue with diesel engines.
Now, modern cars are MUCH cleaner than the cars made even in the late 70's to early 80's. Pollution control systems are far more effective than they were. Plus, where's the old leaded gas - gone...
EVs are not all that they are cracked up to be, far too expensive, have serious usage and reliability issues (bursting in flames at random doesn't help) and since there STILL isn't a universal charging solution - they can be a real pain at times.
Yeah, there's no perfect system. EVs also currently requiring the mining of rare earth minerals. Their components can be recycled, but the problem of resource scarcity doesn't just disappear. But, their batteries can be recycled -- which is more than you can say for gasoline.
It's my understanding that EVs are statistically less likely to catch fire than gas cars.
To me, the most obnoxious trade-off is just the deficiencies in the public DC fast-recharge network. Most of the trade-offs involved in EVs are not too bad compared to the trade-offs in a gas car -- there's a large amount of variability in how far a full tank of gas will get you based on environmental conditions, just like there's a lot of variability in how far a full EV battery charge will get you... but you don't have to think about it with gas cars, because the gas station network is so ubiquitous as to render those factors nearly invisible. So we badly need to build up the recharging infrastructure, and it needs to be as reliable and universal for its users as the existing gas infrastructure is for its users. When we do, things like range anxiety won't be as much of a problem.
The other big trade-off, of course, is cost. Your upfront cost on an EV is much higher, even though your long-term costs are probably lower because you're saving on both the cost of gas and on a lot of the cost of maintenance. But we need to find a way to bring those upfront costs down so that EVs will be affordable to most middle-class and working-class consumers.
This site keeps track of Tesla Deaths
Tesla Deaths is a record of Tesla accidents that involved a driver, occupant, cyclist, motorcyclist, or pedestrian death, whether or not the Tesla or its driver were at fault
As of January 1, 2021
There were ONLY 827,000 Tesla's registered in the USA
Out of 289.5 Million vehicles registered in the US
46% of those vehicles are registered in California
While the average Automotive Electric Motor has > 85% Energy Efficiency. The more efficient of a Electric Motor you get, the more expensive it is to make.
While their are Electrical Motors with 99.05% Energy Efficiency, they AIN'T cheap.
The higher the efficiency of a motor you want, the more money you have to spend, it starts getting exponential in cost.
RCCI (Reactivity Controlled Combustion Ignition) is the Combustion cycle that will help dramatically improve ICE Thermal Efficiency.
RCCI boosted a 25% standard Thermal Efficiency 4-cylinder engine to the 50-60% Thermal Efficiency levels.
The Carnot Theorem states that the upper Theoretical Limit of a Heat engine is 83% Thermal Efficiency.
That is really exciting news. If they can adapt the existing gas infrastructure to deliver fuel for gas cars that doesn't put more carbon in the atmosphere, they should definitely go for it.
But to be pedantic: you still can't recycle fuel that you burn.
Only if you don't get into accidents. Once you do, the battery goes up in flames and you're screwed.
Yeah, I'm not a Tesla fan per se. I admire parts of their designs, but things like the fancy space doors are a prime example of making something too complicated to do its job. And under no circumstances should people trust the "Full Self-Driving" technology -- too many examples of Tesla cutting corners in that tech without giving drivers the full picture.
The EV that I really want when I eventually am in the position to do so is a Chevy Bolt -- much more down-to-Earth, no-frills, does the things a car needs to do.
That is really exciting news. If they can adapt the existing gas infrastructure to deliver fuel for gas cars that doesn't put more carbon in the atmosphere, they should definitely go for it.
But to be pedantic: you still can't recycle fuel that you burn.
The EV that I really want when I eventually am in the position to do so is a Chevy Bolt -- much more down-to-Earth, no-frills, does the things a car needs to do.
Problem is, I actively want an electric vehicle. I don't want to use any gasoline, both because I want to minimize the amount of carbon I'm putting in the atmosphere from driving and because I want to minimize gas costs and maintenance costs.
It's not a matter of if it catches fire.
It's the fact that once it catches fire, it's VERY hard to stop.
I mean, I think it is a question of if it catches on fire. If EV accident fires are significantly less common than gas car accident fires, then EVs are by definition safer.
To make a comparison: if your airplane crashes, then you are less likely to survive than you are in a car crash. But airplane crashes are so less common than car crashes that airplanes are a lot safer than cars, even if an airplane crash is more deadly than a car crash.
Problem is, I actively want an electric vehicle. I don't want to use any gasoline, both because I want to minimize the amount of carbon I'm putting in the atmosphere from driving and because I want to minimize gas costs and maintenance costs.
I mean, I think it is a question of if it catches on fire. If EV accident fires are significantly less common than gas car accident fires, then EVs are by definition safer.
To make a comparison: if your airplane crashes, then you are less likely to survive than you are in a car crash. But airplane crashes are so less common than car crashes that airplanes are a lot safer than cars, even if an airplane crash is more deadly than a car crash.
Fair. Ultimately, this is at least partially ideological -- I really want to be able to take a road trip without using gas. That means I can't do a hybrid. There's a trade-off to that, but it's a trade-off I'm willing to make.
The main issue is you know the statistic rate for Car Accidents, it's easily available.
You in a EV getting into a car accident and having the batteries catch on fire and incinerating you before you can get out is the main issue.
As Massachusetts and the United States push to get more electric vehicles on the road to meet climate goals, how worried should we be about incidents like this? Not too worried, experts say — as long as we get prepared.
Though they often grab headlines, electric vehicle fires are less common than gas-powered car fires, said Andrew Klock, senior manager of education and development at the National Fire Protection Association, a nonprofit that offers free EV training for firefighters across the country.
“There’s a gasoline fire in this country every three minutes in a gas vehicle,” he said.
Overall, EVs are about 0.3 percent likely to ignite, versus a 1.05 percent likelihood for gas cars, according to the Bureau of Transportation Statistics and the National Transportation Safety Board compiled by Auto Insurance EZ last year.
“It’s not like electric vehicles are more dangerous,” said Klock. “They’re just different.”
A better way of looking at electric vehicle fires is to compare the number of fires per 100,000 vehicles sold. Researchers from insurance deal site Auto Insurance EZ compiled sales and accident data from the Bureau of Transportation Statistics and the National Transportation Safety Board. The site found that hybrid vehicles had the most fires per 100,000 sales at 3474.5. There were 1529.9 fires per 100k for gas vehicles and just 25.1 fires per 100k sales for electric vehicles.
The reason why it's easy to think that electric car fires are so common is because EVs are still novel and still unknown to a large portion of the public. News and media outlets report on electric car fires more often because of its, which can make it seem like they are a common occurrence. What's more, when there are highway vehicle fires, they can require a tremendous amount of effort from emergency personnel to extinguish the blaze. A chain reaction inside the batteries—sometimes called thermal runaway—can occur when the battery generates more heat than it can dissipate.
In fairness, there is disagreement on whether there is enough data to come to firm conclusions, although the metrics the following person is comparing (fires in fatal collisions in EVs vs. gas cars) are different from the metrics Auto Insurance EZ was using (fires per 100k vehicles sold in EVs vs. gas cars). Per Forbes:
Graham Conway, principal engineer at the Southwest Research Institute in San Antonio, Texas, said there’s not enough information to decide if EVs are more prone to spontaneous fire than ICE ones.
“It is still too early to make any conclusions about EVs and spontaneity of fires. I just don’t think we have the sample size of data or the reporting structure for fires to say with any certainty. What is clear is that the fire is more difficult to deal with, the energy release during the exotherm of the electrolyte takes a lot of cooling to extinguish,” Conway said
Conway said the data didn’t allow for solid conclusions.
“The NTSB data said that after 41 fatal collisions involving BEVs, 1 caught on fire (2.44%). The NTSB data said that after 20,315 fatal collisions involving gasoline vehicles, 644 caught on fire (3.17%). The NTSB data said that after 543 fatal collisions involving gasoline hybrid vehicles, 12 caught on fire (2.21%),” Conway said.
“But 41 crashes vs 20,315 crashes vs 543 crashes make it statistically irresponsible to compare these numbers. For example, if there was a 42nd crash with an EV and it caught on fire then it would be 4.76% of EVs or double the rate of hybrids. Until the sample size is the same and significant we just can’t say which will be worse or not,” Conway said.
Richard Billyeald, chief technical officer at Britain’s Thatcham Research, said EVs generally appear less likely fire risks, but the data is limited.
“Our latest research indicates that the risk of a fire for all types of EV remains less likely than for ICE vehicles. It should be noted that the usable data only goes back five years and even now the number of EVs on the roads still represents a very small sample size. This is also reflected in the safety testing we conduct in the U.K. on behalf of Euro NCAP (European auto safety), where despite the robust impacts to the front and particularly the sides of the vehicle where the battery is most vulnerable, there have been no resultant thermal events,” Billyeald said.
<SNIP>
LMC Automotive analyst Oliver Petschenyk said it’s hard to say whether ICE cars or EVs are more or less prone to fires. With ICE vehicles, typical fire causes are brake fluid leaks igniting after exhaust contact, and electrical short circuits, which are usually design failures. Common EV failures include an internal cell short which could lead to thermal runaway.
“I believe the likelihood of a vehicle’s battery failing is becoming ever more less likely. However the number of EVs on the road is increasing possibly at a higher rate so I believe thermal events for the foreseeable future are still likely,” Petschenyk said.
It does look like fires in hybrids are more likely than for either gas cars or EVs, though:
“I believe the biggest risk to hybrids and PHEVs (plug-in hybrid electric vehicles) is driven by package. Due to the requirement of fitting two powertrains into one vehicle (ICE powertrain and EV powertrain) all components are much more densely packaged, thermal control and electrical components may need to be packaged quite close to exhausts. In addition, batteries are subjected to a much higher duty cycle than EV batteries, they are discharged to zero and charged to 100% more frequently and typically faster (at the cell level) resulting in faster dendrite formation (another way in which cells can fail via internal short circuit),” Petschenyk said.
Again, please bear in mind that the metrics Conway are comparing (fires in fatal collisions in EVs vs. gas cars) are different from the metrics Auto Insurance EZ was using (fires per 100,000 vehicles sold in EVs vs. gas cars).
Overall, it still looks to me like EV fires are less common than gas car fires. It is obviously true however that EV fires are very different from gas car fires and that fire departments need better training on how to handle such cases. And I think we can all agree that car doors need to be designed in such a way as to eliminate the possibility of their failing in an emergency because a motion detector doesn't work or whatever.
Problem is, I actively want an electric vehicle. I don't want to use any gasoline, both because I want to minimize the amount of carbon I'm putting in the atmosphere from driving and because I want to minimize gas costs and maintenance costs.
one of my daughters has a Volt. The engine rarely kicks in except once in awhile in maintenance mode, or whatever they call it. By not being as heavy as an EV I think it's equivalent mileage is better. It doesn't need a special charger, it just plugs into the same outlet I run the mower off of, near the carport. But her commute is not very long. For her it practically IS an EV, but without the need to rent a gasoline car when going on a long trip.
I honestly think it's one of the best cars GM made in the last 20 years. It's a pity it did not sell better.
Fair. Ultimately, this is at least partially ideological -- I really want to be able to take a road trip without using gas. That means I can't do a hybrid. There's a trade-off to that, but it's a trade-off I'm willing to make.
And I think we can all agree that car doors need to be designed in such a way as to eliminate the possibility of their failing in an emergency because a motion detector doesn't work or whatever.
Or requiring the inner door handle to be "Pure Mechanical" and not dependent on electronics to work when I want to make a rapid egress to save my life from a potentially explosive situation after an accident.
one of my daughters has a Volt. The engine rarely kicks in except once in awhile in maintenance mode, or whatever they call it. By not being as heavy as an EV I think it's equivalent mileage is better. It doesn't need a special charger, it just plugs into the same outlet I run the mower off of, near the carport. But her commute is not very long. For her it practically IS an EV, but without the need to rent a gasoline car when going on a long trip.
I honestly think it's one of the best cars GM made in the last 20 years. It's a pity it did not sell better.
Yeah, I think hybrids are a really good option for people who want to be more "green" but still want the safety of falling back on a traditional gas engine on longer trips.
That's fair. For me, I already prefer to stop and get out and stretch and/or eat for about a half hour or so every three or four hours. So if I'm already taking a 30-45 minute break every few hours, needing to recharge doesn't really bother me.
Or requiring the inner door handle to be "Pure Mechanical" and not dependent on electronics to work when I want to make a rapid egress to save my life from a potentially explosive situation after an accident.
Yeah, I think hybrids are a really good option for people who want to be more "green" but still want the safety of falling back on a traditional gas engine on longer trips.
I think my Synergestic Hybrid plan is the REAL solution to the world's automotive issues for a multitude of reasons listed above.
That's fair. For me, I already prefer to stop and get out and stretch and/or eat for about a half hour or so every three or four hours. So if I'm already taking a 30-45 minute break every few hours, needing to recharge doesn't really bother me.
The issue is Aesthetic or Luxury designers trying dictate car design instead of practical engineers dictating the majority of things.
For me, the external door handles could be electronic, that's fine.
The rear Trunk / Boot should have a mechanical lock & latch just incase you need to get in and the electronics fail for whatever reason.
Use a modern, more high security mechanical key system., don't use the legacy crap keys that can be picked.
All internal door handles should be purely mechanical in nature to gurantee that they work.
And no more traditional Boot/Trunk in a sedan.
The era of a traditional Box Boot/Trunk should be eliminated.
All Sedans need to have a Lift-Back or Hatch-Back trunk with ease of access to the main passenger compartment via a retractable fabric cover.
I’m less concerned about vehicle fires with it than I am getting from Point A to Point B finding a charger. The week we got the car, we took our kids on a spring bring trip about three hours from here and other than a quick stop (which frankly, if you’ve ever traveled with kids, would happen anyway) with minimal time out of our way. We stayed at an AirBnB and were unable to plug in at the house with our travel plug. There was an issue with the outdoor outlet that wouldn’t work for us. The closest charger was about 45 minutes away in the opposite direction from home. We had enough charge to get around for the few days that we were there but it was going to be tight getting to said charger the morning we left. My wife (it’s her car) ended up taking the car up the night before just to make sure we could get there. She did. But the battery got to -2%. It’s nice that there’s a little extra charge than anticipated. But I’m glad I wasn’t in the car. I would have flipped my lid.
Basically to me, the issue is more that we need a better charging network for these vehicles than worry about the things catching fire. It’s a risk, sure. But a minor one.
on the two wheel side of things, the Harley DelMar is going to start around $17000 msrp. Normal H-D prices, and way below what the original livewire cost. Doesn't have me sold, yet, and my next bike will still be gas, but I'm not disinterested.
I’m less concerned about vehicle fires with it than I am getting from Point A to Point B finding a charger. The week we got the car, we took our kids on a spring bring trip about three hours from here and other than a quick stop (which frankly, if you’ve ever traveled with kids, would happen anyway) with minimal time out of our way. We stayed at an AirBnB and were unable to plug in at the house with our travel plug. There was an issue with the outdoor outlet that wouldn’t work for us. The closest charger was about 45 minutes away in the opposite direction from home. We had enough charge to get around for the few days that we were there but it was going to be tight getting to said charger the morning we left. My wife (it’s her car) ended up taking the car up the night before just to make sure we could get there. She did. But the battery got to -2%. It’s nice that there’s a little extra charge than anticipated. But I’m glad I wasn’t in the car. I would have flipped my lid.
Basically to me, the issue is more that we need a better charging network for these vehicles than worry about the things catching fire. It’s a risk, sure. But a minor one.
With my Synergestic Hybrid and smaller battery capacity rated for:
50 mi | _80 km @ GVWR of the vehicle, for up to 35-50% Battery degradation from the original specified Initial Maximum Battery Capacity
- OR -
62 mi | 100 km @ GVWR of the vehicle, for up to 35-50% Battery degradation from the original specified Initial Maximum Battery Capacity
You could just plug it into the standard 120 V wall outlet and be done charging in a few hours.
On a 220V wall outlet, it'd charge even faster.
No need for specialized Fast Chargers.
And if you have to go long range, the gas station is always available.
I said nothing about a fast charger. Simply asking for a better network of chargers in general. Now, granted, my wife did charge our car using a Tesla supercharger but we had other considerations, namely kids. I also said that we did have a travel charger but for some odd reason, it would not work where we were staying. Had it, charging on the trip would have been a lot different.
The travel charger has a 120v plug with several adaptors. The outdoor outlet appeared to be a standard 120v but when we plugged in the charger, the indicator light on the charger, which is typically green, was red. When we looked it up, the website suggested that the outlet could have incorrect voltage and to not charge. So we did not. Rather not kill our battery on the first week we had the car.
