Does the current state of Star Trek say anything about what fans want?

[fireproof78]

These goal posts are not moving, I'm not talking about some deep down secret mental issue. i'm talking about rather straight forward behaviors, to the people swear. That isn't a vague ill defined aspect of conscientiousness. How one controls their self expression is deeply imbedded in the concept.

Please cite your work.

The word you're looking for is the imbedded escapism that was always part and parcel in trek. Whatever way you want to see it a Socialist Utopian, a time when the good old boys could make the world right, courage in the face of danger, or simply narratives that aren't weighted down with emotional content, the point is it's established as part of the show.

TOS was a variety show. It can expand. I expect it to do so. I expect it to reflect the times in which it was made, and not remain the same. The Good Old Boys is shockingly sexist and I was not expecting it to appear in this Trek thread, but here we are.

See, I grew up with TOS, but I grew up with a father who taught me that emotions are not a bad things, that to cry was not evil, and to express emotions was a strength. That you think the Trek concept cannot support such an idea when it is ostensibly branded "the human adventure" is short sighted. It reflects a narrow view that actually encourages emotional suppression that is not healthy in humans.

Doesn't mean anything if nobody wants to be in the same room as you.

Means very little to me. I won't change my opinion for the majority. Ever.

Brand loyalty is a real thing in marketing.

I'm aware. It's toxic, aggressive and represents a tragic possesseveness of humanity that is best left forgotten, especially in a supposedly enlightened fan base as in Star Trek.

Again are you sure you're in the right thread?

I believe I am stating my opinion. So, yes.

You won't watch if they can't afford to make it.

And that's...bad...???

 

[Sci]

The word you're looking for is the imbedded escapism that was always part and parcel in trek. Whatever way you want to see it a Socialist Utopian, a time when the good old boys could make the world right, courage in the face of danger, or simply narratives that aren't weighted down with emotional content, the point is it's established as part of the show.

Bold added for emphasis.

See, that there is the issue. What you're looking for is not conscientiousness. You're looking for a form of storytelling with what I would charitably call simpler character writing. You are, in other words, looking for the repetition of a plot formula with little in the way of depth of characterization.

That's fine, but that doesn't make your preference "objectively" better or its characters "conscientious." Dudley Do-Right is not more conscientious than Jay Gatsby; he's just from a more simplistic narrative.

 

[1001001]

Holy crap.

I take my wife downtown to see a concert, check in before we head out, and there’s been an explosion of ridiculous.

Anyone who starts out attacking “wokeness” has lost the argument before it starts.

Anyone who claims “objectivity” in art and entertainment has also lost the argument before it starts.

I believe in tennis they call that a double-fault.

Do me a solid and keep it semi-civil as I don’t have the time or energy for warnings.

 

[BillJ]

And that's...bad...???

Like before, between 2005 and 2017, fan films, comics and novels would fill in.

 

[The Wormhole]

Question for everyone in the thread: what does Pedro Pascal have to do with Star Trek?

You haven't heard? There's a Disco spin-off in the works where Pascal must become guardian over a Kelpien child who could potentially trigger another Burn.

 

[BillJ]

Bold added for emphasis.

See, that there is the issue. What you're looking for is not conscientiousness. You're looking for a form of storytelling with what I would charitably call simpler character writing. You are, in other words, looking for the repetition of a plot formula with little in the way of depth of characterization.

That's fine, but that doesn't make your preference "objectively" better or its characters "conscientious." Dudley Do-Right is not more conscientious than Jay Gatsby; he's just from a more simplistic narrative.

Holy shit, how did I forget "Family"?!

 

[fireproof78]

I believe in tennis they call that a double-fault.

Very true. +1 for tennis reference.

Like before, between 2005 and 2017, fan films, comics and novels would fill in.

RPGs, conventions, fan efforts, all of it. I never understood the fear of a show no longer being produced.

You haven't heard? There's a Disco spin-off in the works where Pascal must become guardian over a Kelpien child who could potentially trigger another Burn.

Well, damn it, now I have to watch it because Star Trek!

 

[cooleddie74]

 

[SalyutBuran]

Quit trying to outsmart the room, you're not very good at it.

I love this, you guys are literally trying to dismiss well articulated points of criticism of the show. Not mine but just well out in the open popular opinion.

Then you act like I'm the one forcing this conversation into some highbrow discussion.

Analytics will only take one so far. Ask DC, or Disney on Star Wars movies or Star Trek Beyond.

And we don't need it to go that far, because nutrek is so blatantly off the rails from a traditional trek consumer profile basis.

"Disney on Star Wars" if there's better living proof of how analytics can get you so far. Lol they literally took all this knowledge crushed it through the filter of internal corporate struggling and put it through the filter of wokism.

Early season Mandalorina/Andor is what you get when you actually listen to the marketing people. Bobo Fett is what you get when you don't.

There is still a human factor that simply can't be accounted for, or else every TV show and movie would be monster hits. There would be no failures.

There's a difference when you have literally billion dollar IPs. Internal corporate struggles and a woke filter are required to do that.

A show like the Orville has an uphill battle because it's a no name brand, and it had to get produced has a comedy when it was designed to be a trauma.

 

[Nerys Myk]

And magically 40 years later and still everyone agrees that first season of TNG was an abomination to all mankind.

Just as 20 years later the first two seasons of ENT were an abomination.

The difference is that nu trek started in 2017 and it has taken 6 years to produce something that has mass appeal(STP sesason 3).

How "massive" is the appeal of any of those shows? I see people who love the shows and some who hate them.

ou're trying to redefine what the concept even is. TNG characters didn't have an abundance of negative qualities, it's sort of the whole point. They were mentally stable, disciplined people.

Once they got past making them practically perfect in every way they got more interesting, Not sure how mentally stable they were. Picard seemed to carry a lot of guilt from losing Jack and the Stargazer to becoming Locutus. Then there is Creeper La Forge. Oh well that made him slightly more complex that the wet cardboard that often passed for "characterization" in a lot of TNG characters.

It stars pedro pascal, who's like literally the biggest name in television.

He was an outstanding success in the Mandalorian, Narcos, and Game of Thrones. Guy's a big actor on 3 tentpoll production.

Guy ambiguously ethnic, guy looks like he could be from any Middle Eastern/Canamerican/Latin American or European country. He plays characters who are economically disadvantaged while also displaying some notable level of social sophistication. This is how you maximize your appeal.

He's attractive to women, and yet has a history of playing aggressive physically competent characters.

Guy plays exclusively characters with a rigid moral code, while also having very liberal flexibilities.

The show is literally the most relatable trope possible/end of the world. Made exactly when a global pandemic has finally tapered off to a point that it is now ok to engage in it.

It's HBO who on average are pretty good at grabbing a wide range of demographics.

Then you have an install fanbase based on a game.

That isn't remotely niche. Without padro pascal, maybe. But Pedro Pascal is more or less proving he's the "last true cowboy".

Yeah, I like both show but Pascal is not the biggest name in TV. I'm not even sure how often he's on screen in The Mandalorian. He's good in The Last of Us, but Bella is the reason I watch.

 

[fireproof78]

A show like the Orville has an uphill battle because it's a no name brand, and it had to get produced has a comedy when it was designed to be a trauma.

I'll say it was traumatizing. Wait, can I say that? Sounds insensitive.

Early season Mandalorina/Andor is what you get when you actually listen to the marketing people. Bobo Fett is what you get when you don't.

You get a show that caters to a select and loud few. That's not very enjoyable for everyone.

The Mandalorian is a literal cipher. He has no depth or anything beyond his guns at times. He serves at the pleasure of the plot. To me, he lacks anything that makes a Star Wars character interesting.

Andor was OK, but struggled. And given the complaints I saw around here I doubt it was based around "objective" research.

 

[SalyutBuran]

Hold on. How can Pedro Pascal simultaneously be the biggest name in television for starring in The Mandalorian and The Last of Us, when we have been assured that the reason HBO Max and Disney+ are failing to turn profits is that the audience hates and feels betrayed by their shows?

Selective listening. The Mandalorian bucked the trend at first by sticking with a simple formula, then they took a hard 180 and started trying to nurf the main character with bobba fett and 3rd season mando. Like it's literally a perfect illustration of how things go south. As soon as Katie Sackoff appeared, it was obvious that Mando was running on fumes.

 

[Sci]

Selective listening. The Mandalorian bucked the trend at first by sticking with a simple formula, then they took a hard 180 and started trying to nurf the main character with bobba fett and 3rd season mando. Like it's literally a perfect illustration of how things go south. As soon as Katie Sackoff appeared, it was obvious that Mando was running on fumes.

Love having mobile goalposts!

 

[cooleddie74]

Yawn.

 

[fireproof78]

Love having mobile goalposts!

Not that I love the Mandalorian, but it wasn't on fumes when Cara Dunn was on there, or Fenic Shawn was on there, but Katee Sackoff is and now it's on fumes?

*looks up the cast of the original Star Wars* Yup, somehow manage to make it with a strong female character. I have no clue what is being argued now, and I strongly suspect I don't want to.

 

[BillJ]

There's a difference when you have literally billion dollar IPs. Internal corporate struggles and a woke filter are required to do that.

See there really isn't, because we see Marvel super hero movies, same type of movies DC makes and from the people who do the Star Wars movies, do big cash all the time.

Do you truly think Warner Brothers would've spent $250 million dollars on Black Adam if there was a no bones about it sure fire formula for a hit movie? Woke has nothing to do with it, businesses are in business to make money. They will do whatever it takes to make money.

This shit isn't nearly as dire nor as perfunctory as you make it out to be. Movie and TV studios never really know what it is that is going to catch the public's eye. They simply look at trends and try to adapt. I don't know if you know anything about sports, but teams from various leagues will spend a huge amount of money looking at players and a huge amount of money acquiring those players, and it is literally a 50/50 shot whether any of those players will ever do anything justifying all that expense. Same with movies. You can look at trends, but trends are fickle things. Just because I liked an Iron Man movie, doesn't mean I'm going to like a Black Adam movie.

Do you remotely understand?

 

[BillJ]

Reminds me of the 90's when FOX put out the highly touted Adventures of Briscoe County, Jr. on Fridays at 8pm, followed by a little thought of, probably will get canceled quickly show at 9pm. The little thought of show? The X-Files.

 

[cooleddie74]

When the original Night Court premiered in January of 1984 it only survived a rocky midseason launch because NBC and Brandon Tartikoff had nothing else to put on in place of the show if they cancelled it. Within two years it was a huge hit and eventually boasted four consecutive Best Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series Emmys for John Larroquette.

1984 started out, let's just say, very poorly for NBC.

 

[SalyutBuran]

Please cite your work.

Are you claiming there's no connection to conscientiousness/impulsivity and swearing?

TOS was a variety show. It can expand. I expect it to do so. I expect it to reflect the times in which it was made, and not remain the same. The Good Old Boys is shockingly sexist and I was not expecting it to appear in this Trek thread, but here we are.

My literal point was that it doesn't matter, what you call it socialist utopia, good old boys, whatever it doesn't matter, the point is it had cross demographic appeal.

See, I grew up with TOS, but I grew up with a father who taught me that emotions are not a bad things, that to cry was not evil, and to express emotions was a strength. That you think the Trek concept cannot support such an idea when it is ostensibly branded "the human adventure" is short sighted. It reflects a narrow view that actually encourages emotional suppression that is not healthy in humans.

You're tangenting from the point. The human emotions are set in an environment. Where the leads are expected to be at the height of a professional quasi military environment, where they'll be continously exposed to seemingly traumatic action on an episode by episode basis.

If you want to write a show about high school teachers having deep emotional experiences go ahead. If you want to strap 10's of millions of dollars worth of CGI to it, you might want to think again.

Means very little to me. I won't change my opinion for the majority. Ever.

I'm aware. It's toxic, aggressive and represents a tragic possesseveness of humanity that is best left forgotten, especially in a supposedly enlightened fan base as in Star Trek.

I believe I am stating my opinion. So, yes.

And that's...bad...???

So you think fandom is irrelevant then? Who watches is irrelevant? What do you think the relevant part of the conversation is then?

 

[BillJ]

My literal point was that it doesn't matter, what you call it socialist utopia, good old boys, whatever it doesn't matter, the point is it had cross demographic appeal.

No, it didn't. It was constantly on the cancellation bubble and never rated higher than 51st in its three seasons on the air.