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Does the current state of Star Trek say anything about what fans want?

No, you're not. If anything, they are more conscientious, because they are better able to recognize their own negative behavior patterns and seek effective mental health care, which is something that the TNG-era characters often ignored or went into denial about.

You're trying to redefine what the concept even is. TNG characters didn't have an abundance of negative qualities, it's sort of the whole point. They were mentally stable, disciplined people.



Now you're just making shit up.
Do you swear is like literally one of the base questions on a questionaire? Just start with that one.



If you listen to people discuss the production process on 90s-era Trek, it was never "with ease." The strain of doing 26 episodes a season was constant.
It was 26 episodes with the same cast, multiplied by two series, and a feature length film every other year. With all the limitations of 1990s CGI.

My point is you do more of an anthology like series, where you can use different/casts stories in what is technically considered the same show.





That's not really the issue. The issue is simply that none of the major studio streamers have been able to turn a profit -- not Paramount+, not Disney+, not Peacock, etc

The question is why, the assumption that it is anything other than the product is easy, the reality is that it boils down to content being produced. Peakcock doesn't have a tent poll brand, Disney and Paramount took tent poll brands and decided to alienate a massive proportion of the installed fan bases associated with those franchises.





. As I understand things, the only major streamers to turn a profit are Netflix and Hulu.

Am I shocked that one of those properties produced the Orville?



Now, the plan was that they would all run a deficit for the first several years so as to build up a catalog of programs that would entice customers to stay regularly subscribed, so not having turned a profit yet was all part of the plan. But now they're under pressure to change the plan and start turning a profit as a result of external economic factors. Fundamentally, the question is whether single-studio streamers are capable of developing a sufficiently large catalog of programs to retain customers over the long term.

It's not the size of the catalog that counts it's how you use it. The key aspect is brand loyalty. You build up a brand that people are loyal to and you have a steady income stream.

Trolling fan bases is not how you create a loyal fan base. You get lots of attention and zero retention, and that is exactly what we see with shows like STD.

My point with the star trek branding and the problems of nu trek, is that you can pump out a cheaper product, and still maintain fan loyalty/high retention rates, if you simple use the fans you already have, and the format you already have.

This isn't the only reasons why these streaming services are failing but it is one of the obvious ones.

I suspect they are not, but that is not the fault of any one program. It's not the fault of The Mandalorian or Andor over at Disney+, it's not the fault of The Resort or Poker Face over at Peacock, and it's not the fault of Star Trek: Discovery or Star Trek: Picard over at Paramount+. It's a question of their fundamental business model. I think what's gonna happen is, we'll see the major single-studio streamers fold, but we'll see their content migrate over to multi-studio streamers like Netflix or Hulu.

The failure of these platforms were predicted by the mass volumes of fans who were alienated by shows like Kenobi and STD. People were quite vocal on how the brand betrayed them, how they felt contempt for the studios etc. This was always gonna work out this way when you literally alienate more than half the fanbase. Just look at yellowstone predictable format predictable outcome.
 
They were mentally stable, disciplined people.
And? As much as I would love to believe that everyone I meet is a stable person, my experience in the mental health field has taught me otherwise. People are mentally false. They present as stable and lie to get by.

What new Trek has done is pulled back that false face and shown that people can be traumatized, emotionally damaged and scarred and still function. They are honest rather than fake. Give me more people like that. I get enough fakeness in my life.
betrayed them
That's some ridiculousness right there. A brand is not sentient. It cannot betray. That people feel betrayed is on them, not the brand. Sorry. If I don't like a show, I don't watch it. If people feel like it's alienating them we have a million channels out there to tickle your ears.

Alienate away. I still watch it and that makes it worth while because of the conversations I can have with people about pain, trauma and struggle.
 
Trolling fan bases is not how you create a loyal fan base. You get lots of attention and zero retention, and that is exactly what we see with shows like STD.

The show will have ran for five seasons when it is done, that is successful by any measure where streaming is involved. I'm not a fan, but I'm sure CBS had metrics that supported their renewals of the show four times.

Once again, not a fan of the show, but common sense should kick in at some point when determining whether or not Discovery was a success for CBS.
 
The show will have ran for five seasons when it is done, that is successful by any measure where streaming is involved. I'm not a fan, but I'm sure CBS had metrics that supported their renewals of the show four times.

Once again, not a fan of the show, but common sense should kick in at some point when determining whether or not Discovery was a success for CBS.
You would be remiss to think that us fans have common sense around this franchise.

We do not.
 
Um, no. Everyone doesn't agree.


Pretty sure I felt that way early on.

Look if you want to pretend everything is subjective and entirely unknowable go right ahead, there's endless reviews by critics, fans ratings etc, going back decades, including testimonies by the actual people making these shows. I literally pointed to something that is more black and white, exactly because it is so well known.

Evidence ranges from the people producing the show, imdb ratings, critic reviews, tv ratings, regular fan testimony the list goes on and on.

Like literally one of the most racist Trek episodes was in TNG season 1, that's not a highly subjective common opinion, that is quite mainstream.



Who cares about mass appeal? That's ridiculous and paints the fandom with a single color, and not even close to respecting the diversity of opinions presented on this forum and others around newer Trek, including ENT, and Kelvin Trek, Discovery and Star Trek Picard.

Because that's the topic of this thread, mass apeal and fans being intersecting concepts.

I want trek to succeed so it continues to be made.

This is point blank false because it paints fans as monolithic and that if it appeals to the majority it's automatically good. Appeal to the majority doesn't fly.
Actually the whole point is that it isn't a monolith which is exactly why something that appeals to diverse personalities is so critical.

You don't have to think to hard about why a show about a socialist military exploring the galaxy getting into fist fights in popular.

You cast a broad net and you will get fish, if you throw out a narrow net with niche webbing and you get a very small yield.

This isn't some high concept abstraction it's basic marketing.

The whole problem with Nutrek is that they thought they could just cross out entire demographics of a fanbase. Things like swearing did very very very little to expand the fanbase, and it quite obviously alienated a large swath of people. I swear like a sailor it doesn't mean it's a shock to me that it an objectively bad decision considering what the product is.
 
DSC was a success for Paramount. They'll have produced five seasons and roughly 60 episodes that also spawned collectables and merchandise from the series. DSC is a success. It could suck spoiled meat in the vacuum of space and still be a success story for CBS and Paramount and us loving the series or not liking it at all has no impact on their bottom line.

A whole lot of people didn't like DS9 until later in its run or even when it hit Netflix in the streaming era but you can sleep with confidence that Paramount in the 1990s considered it a success and made money off of it.
 
Evidence ranges from the people producing the show, imdb ratings, critic reviews, tv ratings, regular fan testimony the list goes on and on.
And? You say this like it has an impact upon my view. This is still subjective.

And, again, the appeal to the majority does not sway me. Argue your own points or don't expect me to take them seriously. Present your view not couched in poorly phrased languge.
I want trek to succeed so it continues to be made.
Good for you. I don't.
The whole problem with Nutrek is that they thought they could just cross out entire demographics of a fanbase. Things like swearing did very very very little to expand the fanbase, and it quite obviously alienated a large swath of people. I swear like a sailor it doesn't mean it's a shock to me that it an objectively bad decision considering what the product is.
That's false. Very false, because Trek has always pushed the limits with swear words, and it progressed upwards with each passing year.

So, if this is a "shockingly bad" decision then I will go back to TNG and say that Picard saying "damn" and "merde" is far worse and out of character than what newer Trek has presented. And "oh shit" by Data was worse.

The standard should be applied equally.
DSC was a success for Paramount. They'll have produced five seasons and roughly 60 episodes that also spawned collectables and merchandise from the series. DSC is a success. It could suck spoiled meat in the vacuum of space and still be a success story for CBS and Paramount and us loving the series or not liking it at all has no impact on their bottom line.
Indeed. The contraction of the streaming market affected that decision, not swearing or fan reviews. If fan reviews saved shows then ENT would have done better with Season 4.

Spoiler alert: it didn't.
 
You cast a broad net and you will get fish, if you throw out a narrow net with niche webbing and you get a very small yield.

These days all anyone is getting is niche audiences, the TV watching public is fractured. So, no, a wide net isn't going to get people who aren't already subscribing to Paramount+ to watch. There is a limit to their numbers.
 
These days all anyone is getting is niche audiences, the TV watching public is fractured. So, no, a narrow net isn't going to get people who aren't already subscribing to Paramount+ to watch. There is a limit to their numbers.
And this is a feature, not a bug. The broad stretching of streaming services was meant to appeal to the niche, not the same broadcast audience of past broadcasting cycles.
If we've reached the point in the Trek franchise where a few characters using obscenities is the breaking point and kills the whole thing then all I can say is: "Let's get the Hell out of here."
Agreed. Somehow we have missed the point.

Yes, I do not mind if Trek stops being made. Somehow, invariably, life will go on. And so will my enjoyment of TOS, DS9, Kelvin Trek, Discovery, LD, Picard and maybe even Prodigy. Life is full of mysteries.
 
There's no problem there if you think people like myself are asleep you've already jumped off the deep end.

I think everyone has blind spots and it's silly to pretend we don't.

You have no idea what I believe, and thankfully you illustrated my point that you tell us what you believe and it's quite loud and clear what you mean and what your sweeping assumptions are.

:guffaw::guffaw::guffaw::guffaw:

You complain that I have no idea what you believe and then you immediately jump into ascribing things to me without asking. Hilarious! Oh, and you claim it's unreasonable to call you "asleep" when you display such an immediate lack of self-awareness of your own hypocrisy. Very amusing.


And this is just a perfect example. You just started your argument by grouping people by skin color.

Acknowledging the social reality of racial identity groups doesn't mean you're not acknowledging the various other axes along which which oppression functions.

But the unavoidable fact of the matter is, we know that the infant mortality rate for black Americans is much lower than it is for white Americans. There are only three possible explanations for that: Either black women don't love their babies as much as white women do, or black women are less capable of taking care of their babies than white women are, or black women are subjected to institutional discrimination that white people do not often perceive. The first two explanations are inherently obviously false: Black women love their children just as much as white women love theirs, and black women are just as capable of taking care of their children as white women. The only explanation is that systemic racial discrimination exists and operates in ways in which may white people don't perceive it.

speaking about implicit biases, how about that bias where all of the world can be defined by "implicit biases" regardless of whether or not they have any connection to reality.

Here's a very quick way to test yourself if you have an implicit bias. Think of the word "scientist." Do you picture a man or a woman when you think of that word? If you picture a man, congratulations -- you have an implicit bias, because your culture has taught you to associate the idea of "scientist" with men.

The vast overriding feature of the world we live in is that we're the very very recent product of some very very horrid social environments. The problem with the "implicit bias" is that it doesn't have any means of distinguishing between history and the present social environment.

If you look at natives in Canada you get people with pure native ancestry and people that are mostly european at this point(i.e. me). Turns out the amount of native blood/your appearance has little to do with your problems in life. Turns out the best predictor of your hardship isn't whether or not you look white or look native, but whether or not you're a victim of abuse(in my case molestation).

I am very sorry to hear that you were the victim of molestation. But that doesn't justify ignoring a lot of evidence of institutional discrimination against Indigenous Canadians.

The world is complicated

Yes. And being "woke" means recognizing its complications, including those complications that are unpleasant.

The famous black barbie ball study being a perfect example of just bad science. Turns out black kids prefer white barbies, because "duh" the design of a barbie was based on a lightly colored plastic. So naturally if you flip the color scheme it is gonna be less desirable.

Citation needed.

You're trying to redefine what the concept even is.

No, I'm explaining how your understanding of the concept is flawed.

TNG characters didn't have an abundance of negative qualities, it's sort of the whole point. They were mentally stable, disciplined people.

Absolute hogwash. The TNG characters are arrogant chauvinists who believe that their culture is superior to others. They look down upon 20th Century humans as inherently inferior instead of recognizing that everyone is a product of their own cultures and the political systems of which they are a product. They ignore evidence of their own mental health struggles (Jean-Luc in "Family," "I, Borg," and First Contact come to mind). Hell, Jean-Luc was a 57-year-old man who was not asexual or aromantic and was not holding a profession that prevented a relationship, yet he had never been able to maintain a long-term romantic partnership? That's a huge red flag that there's something not right with his mental health, yet the series completely ignores this! We see Starfleet pressure officers who have suffered profound traumas to go back to work way too soon (e.g., Jean-Luc after both Borg assimilation and Cardassian culture), the mental health care they do offer is laughably bad (it is very clear that nobody who ever wrote Deanna's therapy sessions knows what the hell good mental health care looks like). They constantly spread the belief that biological essentialism explains the behavior of aliens rather than framing things in terms of culture.

The TNG characters have a lot of flaws! But TNG as a narrative doesn't recognize them as flaws, because TNG as a narrative (and its characters as a result) is far less conscientious than DIS or PIC are.

Do you swear is like literally one of the base questions on a questionaire? Just start with that one.

Swearing is a normative way of expression strong emotion, and in modern parlance, using "shit" as a synonym for "stuff" is extremely normative. It is classist to assert that there's anything wrong with swearing.

It was 26 episodes with the same cast, multiplied by two series, and a feature length film every other year. With all the limitations of 1990s CGI.

My point is you do more of an anthology like series, where you can use different/casts stories in what is technically considered the same show.

That's cool, but it was always an extremely difficult production system that exhausted its employees.

The question is why, the assumption that it is anything other than the product is easy, the reality is that it boils down to content being produced. Peakcock doesn't have a tent poll brand, Disney and Paramount took tent poll brands and decided to alienate a massive proportion of the installed fan bases associated with those franchises.

I'm sorry, but no. Plenty of these shows have been extremely popular outside of the online echo chamber. The problem is not the content, the problem is the business model.

Am I shocked that one of those properties produced the Orville?

To be clear, The Orville spent its first two seasons on the Fox network and only moved to Hulu in its third season. It has since also premiered on Disney+, since the Walt Disney Company owns both Disney+ and Hulu. It is unclear if The Orville will be renewed for another season at this point.

It's not the size of the catalog that counts it's how you use it. The key aspect is brand loyalty. You build up a brand that people are loyal to and you have a steady income stream.

Brand loyalty derives from the catalog. Ultimately, you gotta have both size and variety. Think about it -- back in the 90s, you didn't go to the Disney Video Rental Store or the Paramount Video Rental Store or the Warner Bros. Video Rental Store. You went to Blockbuster, or Family Video, or Hollywood Video, and those chains would carry content from a variety of genres and a variety of studios, and they needed to carry enough inventory that there would be a steady stream of customers every day.

The same principle applies to streamers. Disney+, Paramount+, etc all made a bet that they could deficit-finance the production of a large and varied enough catalog that they could eventually maintain a steady customer base. The questions are, 1) will that plan work at all?, and 2) will that plan work in the amount of time their parent companies now need it to work in? We'll see.

Trolling fan bases is not how you create a loyal fan base.

No one trolled fans, and it is pure narcissism to imagine that that was the motivation. Like it or not, the creators just had different artistic tastes than you happened to have.

People were quite vocal on how the brand betrayed them,

I'm sorry, but I can't take that kind of nonsense seriously. A different of artistic taste is not a betrayal.
 
Fun fact: The Last of Us is aimed at a niche audience with fairly limited reach but it's clearly a hit and one of the few streaming series that seems to be on everyone's tongues at the moment. "Niche" doesn't mean "failure to reach an adequate audience." A lot of popular shows aren't geared for kids from 9 to 90.
 
When we try to be "objective" we exclude external factors that exist when we consume entertainment. I likely wouldn't have been a Trek fan if not for my circumstances and being exposed to it at a very young age. Trek wasn't groundbreaking sci-fi, it was a Western wearing a sci-fi mask, just enough of one to spark my imagination.


No one can gauge what an audience member is doing or going through when watching and those external factors affect us.
And this is just flat out wrong, like there's literally an entire industry based on exactly what you're claiming doesn't exist.

It's pretty much what the internet and modern analytics does. The more they can predict your behavior the faster than can target you as a paying customer.

Like this isn't some opinion, it's literally a industry that makes 100's of billion a year, and it is literally as simple as breaking down people based on their consumer profiles, which unsurprisingly have astonishing overlap with your base personality traits like conscientiousness.


Objectivity has objectively nothing to do with how one feels about entertainment.

Again this is just anti science. Google wouldn't exist if what you were suggesting is remotely true. Tracking consumer behavior is literally one of the biggest industries in the history of civilization. It's probably a good bit greater than a trillion dollar industry.

You can't objectively know what someone is feeling, but you can pretty accurately predict where people of similar consumer profiles will react.
 
Yes, I do not mind if Trek stops being made. Somehow, invariably, life will go on. And so will my enjoyment of TOS, DS9, Kelvin Trek, Discovery, LD, Picard and maybe even Prodigy. Life is full of mysteries.

This. Somehow Trek fans made it from 1969 to 1987 with a few movies and a mostly unwatched animated series, and again from 2005 to 2017, with a couple of movies. Trek fans will survive, even if the franchise goes on life support again.
 
Like this isn't some opinion, it's literally a industry that makes 100's of billion a year, and it is literally as simple as breaking down people based on their consumer profiles, which unsurprisingly have astonishing overlap with your base personality traits like conscientiousness.
Can it predict human behavior at all times? Or simply suggest possible patterns of behavior and likelihoods?

People still abide by subjective experiences. Broad strokes makes for poor decisions.

This. Somehow Trek fans made it from 1969 to 1987 with a few movies and a mostly unwatched animated series, and again from 2005 to 2017, with a couple of movies. Trek fans will survive, even if the franchise goes on life support again.
Indeed. It would be just fine by me if it stopped.
 
And this is just flat out wrong, like there's literally an entire industry based on exactly what you're claiming doesn't exist.

It's pretty much what the internet and modern analytics does. The more they can predict your behavior the faster than can target you as a paying customer.

Like this isn't some opinion, it's literally a industry that makes 100's of billion a year, and it is literally as simple as breaking down people based on their consumer profiles, which unsurprisingly have astonishing overlap with your base personality traits like conscientiousness.




Again this is just anti science. Google wouldn't exist if what you were suggesting is remotely true. Tracking consumer behavior is literally one of the biggest industries in the history of civilization. It's probably a good bit greater than a trillion dollar industry.

You can't objectively know what someone is feeling, but you can pretty accurately predict where people of similar consumer profiles will react.

Quit trying to outsmart the room, you're not very good at it. Analytics will only take one so far. Ask DC, or Disney on Star Wars movies or Star Trek Beyond. There is still a human factor that simply can't be accounted for, or else every TV show and movie would be monster hits. There would be no failures.
 
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Trek from 1964 to 2005 gave us 826 television episodes and 10 movies. If Trek had simply been written off as a viable franchise after ENT went off the air then we'd still have close to 1,000 hours of canonical stories from which to create fan fiction, fanfilms and other content for decades to come. It was already one of the biggest franchises in popular culture when UPN was still a thing.

I'd hate it if Trek were buried as a franchise producing new series and/or films but if you can't find joy in almost 1,000 hours of TV and movies then you probably can't find joy in any new stuff coming from that intellectual property.
 
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