Spoilers The Dominion and the Borg

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Picard' started by Unimatrix Q, Mar 11, 2023.

  1. Unimatrix Q

    Unimatrix Q Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    Location:
    Germany
    "No Win Scenario" proved once and for all that the Borg never met the Dominion or at least assimilated a changeling.
    Otherwise Seven wouldn't have been so clueless about their nature and abilities, in contrast to some of the species Voyager met in the Delta Quadrant.
     
  2. Dukhat

    Dukhat Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Location:
    Maryland, USA
    It did?
     
    Enterprise1701 and ToddCam like this.
  3. Unimatrix Q

    Unimatrix Q Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    Location:
    Germany
    Think it did. Remember how much Seven knew about many species that the Borg encountered before, during Voyager.
     
  4. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2011
    It at the very least means they never met them while seven was a drone
     
    IRW Bloodwing and Qonundrum like this.
  5. Yistaan

    Yistaan Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2018
    It doesn't prove anything. The Founders were god like beings who were inaccessible and never seen by most of the Dominion. The Borg assimilating a bunch of Dominion grunts before the Dominion War would just know that the Founders were a bunch of gods who could appear anywhere at anytime looking like anyone and that's really it. I do agree they probably never assimilated a Founder.

    It wasn't until Odo in the Search discovered that his people were the Founders and then pretty much told everyone. Then with the secret out of the bag so to speak, the Founders started taking a front line involvement in war operations etc., appearing like Odo did because no one actually knew what a Founder looked like beforehand and mimicking Odo's failed attempt at a human face was basically a quick way of announcing, "Yes, I'm a Founder, see I look like Odo who's one of us". However, the Changelings openly giving orders and taking part in combat like we see in DS9 was NOT the Founders' usual modus operandi, and they were pretty much hidden beforehand including during any during any Borg contact.

    Seven had already disconnected from the Borg Collective when the Dominion War launched and was stuck in the Delta quadrant for the duration of the war. So it's not unrealistic that she'd be unfamiliar with Changeling habits and infiltration styles since any Borg contact that Seven would know of with the Dominion predated the Founders taking that kind of active involvement in combat, and any Borg contact afterwards was after Seven already left the Borg.
     
  6. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    Journeying onwards
    She hasn't had access to Borg knowledge in a couple of years. Might have degraded over time.
     
    Qonundrum, ToddCam and Unimatrix Q like this.
  7. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    A Jem Hadar image did appear in an episode of Voyager once as I recall! :techman:
    JB
     
  8. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    Journeying onwards
    And Tom flew against Dominion fighters in a simulation.
     
  9. Finn

    Finn Bad Batch of TrekBBS Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    When was it stated Seven knew fully about the nature and abilities of every single species assimilated by the Borg up to her liberation?
     
    Enterprise1701 and ToddCam like this.
  10. Ianburns252

    Ianburns252 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2021
    Location:
    Ianburns252
    When was this? Feels like something I need to look up and watch as it would be pretty cool to see!
     
  11. Deks

    Deks Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2003
    It was in season 1 or 2 when Tom was coaching Kes on flying... a brief opening sequence in the holodeck.
    But the footage was effectively reused from DS9.

    VOY crew on its own was suggested in Season 4 they had no knowledge of the Dominion, or at least that Chakotay didn't know (even though the events which lead to the Odyssey destruction and subsequent Defiant's search for the Founders occurred before VOY was whisked away to the DQ by the Caretaker.

    The stardate for Ds9 episode 'The Search' is 48212.4.
    The stardate for VOY episode 'Caretaker' is 48315.6

    There's about 1 month of time differential between these two stardates.
    More than enough time for VOY database to be updated before it left to look for the Maqui and ended up in the DQ... though its possible that no one on VOY crew actually LOOKED into those records as they weren't relevant to their initial mission or subsequent circumstances (when they were stranded).
    Its possible Janeway knew.... and she probably informed Chakotay... but when he learned of the Maqui demise, he told Be'Lanna that a species from the G.Q. supplied Cardassians with weapons which allowed them to eliminate the Maqui.
     
    Qonundrum likes this.
  12. Ianburns252

    Ianburns252 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2021
    Location:
    Ianburns252
    Ah right - I thought it might have been a post "Message in a bottle" episode with him doing tests for a new Delta Flyer.

    Thanks for the refresh - will look it up.

    Think you are right that with only a month in between there would have been few, if any, who were fully versed on the Dominion.

    Could probably argue that Tom was scrolling through options for the "enemy" ships and thought they looked cool or some such without knowing what he was choosing in the episode?
     
  13. Finn

    Finn Bad Batch of TrekBBS Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    Yeah, Tom wouldn't have known anything about them, other than the name, when the news about the Odyssey would have come out. Janeway would have known what the ships looked like.
     
  14. Unimatrix Q

    Unimatrix Q Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    Location:
    Germany
    From how quick she was able to recall the species number and other information the Borg had of the ones appearing in Voyager, i think it was highly indicated that she knew (almost) everything the Borg knew, until she left the collective.
     
  15. Verteron

    Verteron Lux in tenebris lucet Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2001
    Location:
    London, UK
    I highly doubt you could fit everything the Borg knows into a humanoid brain. Though I think a general catalogue of species and the capabilities is probably a good thing to keep in the local cache. As for Seven's other knowledge, she probably got whatever was in her organic brain and stored in her cortical implants when she was disconnected, which may have just been bits of Borg knowledge useful to her current assignment, ship, mission, etc..

    She certainly didn't know everything the Borg knew - though - considering she didn't know that her parents had survived, despite apparently both operating close to the Queen while drones.
     
    fireproof78 likes this.
  16. Yistaan

    Yistaan Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2018
    Strangely enough, that could have been something explored in TNG after Best of Both Worlds. Picard coming back from the Borg much smarter and knowing everything about everything. He'd be making use of this knowledge while at the same time hating how he acquired it and that it came from Borg conquests of countless worlds.
     
    Unimatrix Q likes this.
  17. Verteron

    Verteron Lux in tenebris lucet Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2001
    Location:
    London, UK
    The First Contact 'retcon' of the Queen wanting a 'human being with a mind of his own' may suggest that Picard was never connected to the hive mind in quite the same way as your average drone.

    But also, since Picard was only taken for a week, Crusher was likely able to remove his cortical node as he would not have become dependent on it yet, and that may have taken away any 'Borg knowledge' that he'd downloaded from the collective. LaForge did mention 'downloading files' from his implants when they were attempting to help Hugh.
     
  18. Finn

    Finn Bad Batch of TrekBBS Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    No. It was always tidbits, or she would have known about her parents without those recordings they found, and how suspicious the way the Borg came across Icheb was.....


    Oh, and she would have known they are at a transwarp hub before Admiral Janeway showed up in Endgame...
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2023
  19. Deks

    Deks Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2003
    The episode Jem'Hadaar takes place during an unknown stardate, but it stands to reason there was a delay of a few weeks to months in between seasons since the destruction of the Odyssey.

    Tom Paris would not have necessarily known about it when it happened because he was at the New Zealand penal/rehabilitation colony at the time, and I doubt he was keeping up to date on latest news regarding SF ships that were destroyed.
    He may have familiarized himself with the Dominion after VOY was stranded in the DQ to challenge himself in simulations as a pilot, but we don't know.

    By the time VOY was pulled to the DQ, and if Sisko and the Defiant returned to DS9 before VOY left DS9 (which is definitely possible), VOY's database probably did feature some information and reports from Sisko's crew about the Dominion and Founders (assuming SF released this info to all ships in the fleet).

    But we don't know to which degree the VOY crew was familiar with the Dominion specifically. Otherwise, the info should have been in the ship's database (or one would hope).
     
  20. Deks

    Deks Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2003
    Most of what Seven or other Borg disconnected from the Collective know is likely stored in their implants.
    Remember that when Seven experienced issues with emerging personalities the Borg assimilated due to a faulty vinculuum, it was stated that those personalities resided in her implants.
    Its likely the knowledge of the Borg she retains and her eidetic memory are attributed to Borg augmentations.... and besides, Seven herself stated that only useful information is retained from the knowledge... and that in itself makes her one of the most intelligent human beings alive.

    Think of it like this... with say Brain User Interfaces, or far superior/better/safer artificial neural networks - which are also technically possible to create with a bit more research using nanoparticles and programmable metamaterials, you would not only have access to all the sum of human knowledge via say wireless connection, but also a possible way to upload your consciousness to a computer (not create a neural copy though) - though transfer of counscisncess would be more likely with ANN (which would also be infinitely safer) rather than a 'simple' BCI.

    An artificial neural network for example if grafted onto the biological one and could greatly enhance what you remember, the speed at which you access it, etc. (and it can be used to aid in treating/curing neurological disorders). We already made synthetic neurons and other things that can be used for creation of ANN.

    In Seven's case, the knowledge she has is either split between her brain and her implants because it was integrated into her from when she was assimilated and in the marutation chamber... or majority of it is in her brain, with the implants acting as a bio enhancer (and an equivalent of an artificial neural network) and extra storage space for storing excess information (such as assimilated personalities).
    So, even if Seven's cortical implants were to be removed, she would still likely retain most if not all of her Borg knowledge, but the excess personalities and data stored in the implants themselves would be gone - we also don't know how removal of these implants would affect her memory (did she always have eidetic memory, or was it one of the enhancements she got as a Borg - and did her human brain adapt to this change permanently)?
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2023
    Timofnine, Unimatrix Q and Verteron like this.