Conversely, exploration would have become a lot more efficient after Voyager returned home. After all, all they'd need to do is send a probe that goes 'infinitely fast' and its sensor logs will be filled with data that describe 'literally every cubic centimetre in the sector'. And even if that only could be done with a ship, no problem, since the condition of rapid evolution could be reversed. (which also means it would have been no obstacle for Voyager getting home in the first place.)
How would you change the show?
- Thread starter Admiral Jean-Luc Picard
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And? This is about how to use the tools to create drama and manage the crew's reactions. Don't just say "well the show would be over" because that's a cop out. You have to be willing to think within the box while recognizing sources of conflict that comes from the basic premise. Be creative instead of finding the weakest way out, which is what the writers often did.
One of many reasons why "Threshold" should have been declared to be a nightmare Tom had after having thirds on Neelix's leola root enchiladas the previous night.
I quite like the episode for what it is, as I've asserted many times on this forum. But yeah, its implications would be problematic. Though there are many episodes with staggering implications if only the discovery of the week wasn't entirely forgotten by next week's episode.
Come to think of it, since they would be able to both map and reach any sector arbitrarily fast, that would mean that the main limiting factors to exploration would be data processing power (how much data can they store / how fast can they store it or transmit it back home?) - except perhaps for the more 'human' factors of exploration, such as making first contact with a race.
Come to think of it, since they would be able to both map and reach any sector arbitrarily fast, that would mean that the main limiting factors to exploration would be data processing power (how much data can they store / how fast can they store it or transmit it back home?) - except perhaps for the more 'human' factors of exploration, such as making first contact with a race.
That must be an extremely rare form of dilithium they found, because I can't fathom why Starfleet wouldn't try to figure out the navigation problem once they got all of Voyager's logs when regular contact was established. (Or right after they received the logs at the end if "PATHFINDER".)
The biggest problem is that the "Ship shot to another part of the Galaxy" was something that TOS and TNG already did and showed that it wasn't really a serious issue to them because they always got home within the episode.
Meaning the entire premise of the show was inherently flawed to begin with.
Off the top of my head the easiest thing to do would have had Q pop up and say "I'm doing an experiment on humans other than Picard. I'm going to keep you out here for several years to see how you do, and if you try to use any shortcuts to get home I'm just going to send you back out here so don't bother."
But that's too contrived.
Well, we work with what we have.
And that's the fundamental problem. "Caretaker, Part II" should have ended with Chakotay saying, "You need 150 people to run this ship to get home. You have 100. We have 50. You can't get home without us, and that means we should get a say in how this ship is run instead of it just being Starfleet's way or the highway. If you want us to join your crew so we both get home, then we need to run Voyager as a joint Starfleet-Maquis ship, not a Starfleet ship with officers who used to be Maquis. That means my people don't wear Starfleet uniforms and aren't held to the Starfleet Uniform Code of Justice. That means you and me need to agree on command decisions if there isn't a crisis where one person has to make quick judgment calls. And that means Voyager's commanding and executive officers should be accountable to a legislative council elected by the entire ship's compliment, including passengers."
I mean, that depends on what you mean by "major." They were colleagues and respected one-another, but there were still disagreements between the Federation and Bajor and between Sisko and Kira, and Kira's first loyalty was always to Bajor before the Federation. That didn't end after the first season.
I mean, that's a bit like asking how long internal conflicts between Americans are going to last, isn't it? These characters didn't become Maquis arbitrarily -- they chose to become Maquis separatists because they have fundamental ideological disagreements with the Federation and Starfleet. That's not going to end just because they have to live together on the same ship.
What would happen is that at a certain point, a balance would develop, and both sides would be changed by the other. The Starfleet characters would become a bit less institution-driven and the Maquis characters a bit more institutional. And there would probably be times when one side or the other would hold sway and where the balance of power would shift.
It SHOULD have ended with there being a bunch of different Alpha Quadrant aliens all being held on the Array evacuating along with Janeway and Chakotay onto an alien starship the Caretaker had (the original ancient ship he and his mate used to come there in the first place) and then realizing that all the conflicts of the Alpha Quadrant are now making up the new crew of this ship that imprinted on Janeway and recognizes her as the "Designated Pilot" of the ship. The conflict now would be over all the various aliens and not 2 large groups.
Look at TOS, was the majority of the internal conflict between all the crew
Yes but after S1 Kira and Odo accepted Sisko as the boss and any problems they had with Starfleet were minor things and not a conflict directly with him. They were a team that got along fine. No one complained that Kira and Odo should have stayed adversarial to Sisko longer than that.
And taking 7 years to get to this point would have been ridiculous, from a dramatic standpoint. Look at Farscape, the crew there all got over their major conflicts with one another within 1 season. Look at Dr Who, whenever the Doctor and any of his companions are in conflict how long does THAT last?
Look at the Avengers movies, by "Civil War" even some of the audience were tired of the internal conflict.
Anything more than 2 seasons, it gets stupid. Look at "The 100", where the internal conflicts kept going ON and ON to the point where even the actors were sick of it after 3 seasons and felt it was dragging itself out.
Then it's a good thing I didn't say anything about taking seven seasons to get to that point.
Then it's a good thing I didn't say anything about taking seven seasons to get to that point.
Let me guess, 7 years of back and forth with Janeway constantly butting heads with Chakotay for control over the ship and Janeway always on the losing end when the Maquis want something and the Fleeters always having to be the ones to concede to them?
At what point does enough become enough and we as viewers wonder "Why don't the Fleeters just dump the Maquis off somewhere far and distant and pick up a bunch of friendly willing aliens who won't constantly undermine them?"
At what point can Janeway finally be allowed to be a Captain like Kirk, Picard and Sisko where her crew aren't always fighting her?
Again, let me bring up Stargate Universe and the 100 where the audiences and even the actors themselves got tired of the internal conflict.
Nope. No one said or implied that.
Honestly if I were writing such an arc, it might start out that way. But over time it would fall into a new, democratic equilibrium where an initially-resistant Janeway comes to appreciate and value the checks and balances that a democratic system for running Voyager creates, and where an initially-skeptical Maquis faction eventually becomes some of Janeway's strongest supporters. I would have Janeway become a sort of beloved town mayor who is able to bring different factions together under her leadership after she herself learns to compromise.
That's a very Starfleet-centric point of view. It assumes that viewers share a Starfleet POV. What if the viewers think Starfleeters are wrong sometimes?
Anyway, that would be a violation of every principle Starfleet stands for and would also be incredibly self-destructive.
I would have wanted Star Trek: Voyager to be something different than what came before, instead of just repeating the same character dynamics with a new actor. In particular, I think VOY had an opportunity to really explore what democracy means for a small community that it squandered.
I've never seen Stargate Universe, so I can't speak to that. But you know, you can have conflict without it being existential or so unrelenting or alienating that you can't watch the show. What if you have a situation where, say, two elected members of the Voyager Ship's Council are always at odds with each other in terms of ship's policy, but are genuinely the best of friends when the council isn't in session and it's time to go get dinner from the mess hall? What if the purpose of this conflict is not drama and pain and angst for the sake of drama, pain, and angst, but rather a genuine exploration of how democracy and checks and balances lead to better leadership and traditional military autocracy would?
I've been going back over the early days of this topic, and an idea occured to me, regarding when the Maquis go over to uniforms...
For the first season, the Maquis wear their leathers, and there are lots of conflicts. This is especially true with chief engineer Joe Carey and rebellious wünderkind B'Elanna Torres. But then, they reach Planet 37's, and it's agreed at this point that they should have a single Starfllet crew. Anyone who doesn't want to live under this arrangement is free to leave the ship. And, several Maquis malcontents do just that (it would also be a decent way of eliminating Carey and paving the way for B'Elanna to take over Engineering). Those who choose to stay now wear uniforms with provisional rank insignia for the Maquis. Around about "Night", they quietly go to normal ○ and ● insignia.
For the first season, the Maquis wear their leathers, and there are lots of conflicts. This is especially true with chief engineer Joe Carey and rebellious wünderkind B'Elanna Torres. But then, they reach Planet 37's, and it's agreed at this point that they should have a single Starfllet crew. Anyone who doesn't want to live under this arrangement is free to leave the ship. And, several Maquis malcontents do just that (it would also be a decent way of eliminating Carey and paving the way for B'Elanna to take over Engineering). Those who choose to stay now wear uniforms with provisional rank insignia for the Maquis. Around about "Night", they quietly go to normal ○ and ● insignia.
No one in this thread is advocating that. Give the strawman a rest.
I think I would rather see Voyager gradually adopt a hybrid uniform that's neither Starfleet nor Maquis than see Starfleet win.
That should be more the Maquis coming up with their own uniform style rather than the Fleeters changing anything. Their way of saying "Okay, we'll become more of a proper crew but he'll dress in our own uniform style thank you very much". The Fleeters giving up their uniforms is too much of a concession.
This is still ignoring the bigger issue that they need a real plot to drive the story and not "Lost crew trying to get home" because that gets too boring after a while too.
Farscape, Lexx, Dark Matter, they all had bigger plots than what was going on with the ships internal issues. Voyager needed something bigger as well, to drive it all the way to Season 7.
"Trying to find a way home" isn't enough, they needed their own answer to the Dominion Plot from DS9 or the Temporal War in ENT or DIS' multi-season plots.
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She shouldn't be. That's the point.
Agreed. I think that the first season could quite easily explore this intership conflict, as well as learning about the quadrant, and trying to get a map of the region, which Neelix helps out with due to his familiarity, and contacts, both inside the Kazon and with other planets. Along the way they encounter issues that create conflict between the Maquis and Captain Janeway because there are easier ways to solve the problem, including managing a combined crew who are reluctant to work together, or abide by Starfleet regulations. Think like O'Brien explaining a secondary backup to the Cardassians.
Meanwhile, Janeway is trying to catalog as much data as possible from the Delta Quadrant, in anticipation of Starfleet returning. They send out probes, and those probes cause issues. Conflict arises with local powers, Kazon steals one, etc.
Lots of conflict, leading up to the 37s planet and finally hitting that new one crew status.
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