Superman

[The Knappos]

Oh, please--that's what you were doing by arguing against a point no one presented or even hinted at.

Mirrors, Knappos, mirrors.

If you want to reply to this one, well done you’ll have had the last word.

I wasn’t making any argument against anything. I was laughing at genuinely hilarious juxtaposition.

I said this explicitly in two posts already. Hopefully, this reiteration lands with you.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Like when you spent several pages' worth of this thread arguing against the idea that the next Superman movie should reprise the Williams theme when no one said or implied that it had to?

You were the one pulling your hair out, page after page after page with nonsensical spitting, flaming & ranting about how "iconic" the Williams music was and tried to justify having no issue with the creatively bankrupt practice of using it in non-Salkind Superman work--going on to post a list of past productions which used it. That was all you, guy, so you have no ground to stand on.

Williams composed that music for a specific character as developed for an equally specific production. It is not universally applicable to other, unique adaptations as noted with comparison examples of other endlessly adapted character films (Superman, et al.) having no connection to other films or TV series featuring the using it.

 

[Sci]

You were the one pulling your hair out, page after page after page with nonsensical spitting, flaming & ranting about how "iconic" the Williams music was

I do concede that I have better taste in music than you, but so what? I still never claimed the producers of the next Superman movie had any obligation to use the Williams theme, only that the Williams theme is not tied exclusively to the Reeve/Routh films.

 

[EnderAKH]

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I do concede that I have better taste in music than you, but so what? I still never claimed the producers of the next Superman movie had any obligation to use the Williams theme, only that the Williams theme is not tied exclusively to the Reeve/Routh films.

Still going on with the childish bullshit, I see.

In any case, its quite clear you are chained to obsessive repetition--a glaring lack of understanding the value of originality, to be sure. Hopefully, Gunn explores his own creative vision, keeping slavish, fanboy impulses as far away from his Superman film as possible.

 

[Sci]

Still going on with the childish bullshit, I see.

In any case, its quite clear you are chained to obsessive repetition--a glaring lack of understanding the value of originality, to be sure. Hopefully, Gunn explores his own creative vision, keeping slavish, fanboy impulses as far away from his Superman film as possible.

Still refusing to acknowledge that you've spent days arguing against something no one advocates for.

 

[Dee1891]

Superman is the franchise, the Chris Reeve movies were a film series. Those and MoS, as well as the upcoming Superman:Legacy, are all part of the Superman franchise.

No, they're not. They're all different Superman franchises. None of the Superman productions that followed the Chris Reeve's movies were part of that particular franchise, aside from the 2006 sequel that starred Brandon Routh. "Lois and Clark", "Smallville" (which has its own fantastic theme song), "Man of Steel" and the other DCEU movies with Henry Cavill, and "Superman & Lois" are not part of the Reeve/Superman franchise. I get it. You love the Chris Reeve movies. But this attempt to link his films and the 2006 sequel with the other Superman productions strikes me as well, unconvincing.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

This isn't a matter of opinion, it is simply a matter of the meaning of words, in this case the one you used, franchise.
The word franchise is based on the concept of IP, while movies that are narratively connected are a series.

As a different yet closely related example, the Batman movie franchise includes all Batman theatrical features beginning with the Adam West movie accompanying the TV show, continuing with the Burton/Schumacher series, the Nolan trilogy, BvS, all up to the latest installment The Batman, are part of the Batman franchise. Another example would be Star Trek, where we not only have different movie series like TOS-era movies, TNG-era movies and Kelvin-Timeline movies, but different TV shows, as well, all part of the same overall Star Trek franchise.

So, you obviously meant a series of movies, but you used the word franchise.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Still refusing to acknowledge that you've spent days arguing against something no one advocates for.

Your every post (including a list used to justify your creatively bankrupt position) is evidence supporting the charge. Hop in Doc's DeLorean and rewrite your history if you wish it all go "poof!" from this thread, but defunct cars modified into time machines do not exist, you're stuck with the BS you were advocating for several pages.

Dudes, I hope perhaps we might all at least agree that Goldsmith is Williams's equal (in overall variety if not in full emotional power).

Goldsmith was a genius; whether on TV or for the big screen, he created endless scores that were more than unforgettable main title themes, but rich throughout the entire composition. Always listenable, and knew how to tap into characters in a way that is still rare for most composers.

I also agree with TREK GOD 1 that Williams's earlier scores have been somewhat overlooked before and even in some cases after the shark hit Amity Island.

Agreed; aside from his work for Irwin Allen's sci-fi TV series (of note, his Land of the Giants pilot score was a tour-de-force composition), The Reivers, his piano work on Harry Belafonte's Calypso, and Goodbye Mr. Chips all deserve greater appreciation / re-evaluation. I've listened to surviving tapes of his variations of the theme for Kraft Suspense Theatre, and his mindset and approach to certain subject matter in the 1960s was so different and distinctive than most of his post 1975 work. I'd argue he was more adventurous in the 1960s.

No, they're not. They're all different Superman franchises. None of the Superman productions that followed the Chris Reeve's movies were part of that particular franchise, aside from the 2006 sequel that starred Brandon Routh.

All so obviously true. The Salkind Superman/girl films were an entirely separate production. There's no narrative or production connection to anything produced after the Salkind's era, much like the 1966-68 Batman TV series--or the music from Nelson Riddle, Billy May and Neal Hefti were never going to be used in the unrelated Burton/Schumacher films. Using a frequently adapted character in no way links separate productions, and as a logical conclusion, there is no universally applicable, "iconic" music, either.

As you point out:

"Lois and Clark", "Smallville" (which has its own fantastic theme song), "Man of Steel" and the other DCEU movies with Henry Cavill, and "Superman & Lois" are not part of the Reeve/Superman franchise. I get it. You love the Chris Reeve movies. But this attempt to link his films and the 2006 sequel with the other Superman productions strikes me as well, unconvincing.

Rational.

 

[Sci]

Still refusing to acknowledge that you've spent days arguing against something no one advocates for.

Your every post (including a list used to justify your creatively bankrupt position) is evidence supporting the charge. Hop in Doc's DeLorean and rewrite your history if you wish it all go "poof!" from this thread, but defunct cars modified into time machines do not exist, you're stuck with the BS you were advocating for several pages.

Find the post where I argued that the creators of the next Superman movie have any kind of obligation to use the Williams theme. Please. Find the post and quote it.

 

[N-121973]

Still refusing to acknowledge that you've spent days arguing against something no one advocates for.

I would advocate for it. The John Williams theme in my opinion IS the Superman theme.

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[Tosk]

Find the post where I argued that the creators of the next Superman movie have any kind of obligation to use the Williams theme. Please. Find the post and quote it.

I like when one person thinks an argument is "Yes vs No", and the other person thinks it is "No vs Maybe".

I would advocate for it. The John Williams theme in my opinion IS the Superman theme.

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Although funnily enough, that's actually John Ottman's version. Which I personally thought was quite well done.

 

[Sci]

I like when one person thinks an argument is "Yes vs No", and the other person thinks it is "No vs Maybe".

Right??

 

[Ovation]

Right??

Left?

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Maybe it's ''us.'' Meaning we have habitually enjoyed the older musical pieces most in our relative youth. (That's why I find Barry White's LOVE THEME to be my all-time favorite single 20 years before Ally McBeal ever shimmied under the locked door.)

Well, when it comes to Williams, I've found some pigeonhole his composing ability / merit with only a few scores between the end of the 70s and early 80s, which--if--hypothetically--one were to take it as his entire body of work, he would seem limited and repetitious with some exceptions (The Empire Strikes Back being such an exception). Looking at the bigger picture (e.g., the TV and movie credits I posted yesterday), one sees that he had a richer imagination than the BIG FANFARE type of scores he delivered for some of the films of Lucas, Spielberg and yes, Donner's Superman. He was more creatively inspired with (among other scores of the period) Dracula's mix of true horrific cues and tragic as opposed to traditionally sweeping romantic themes.

Personally, the best tracks of the Superman score are The Destruction of Krypton, The Death of Jonathan Kent and Super Dam and Finding Lois--not the main or end title.

Williams or no Williams, the Academy Awards were flat-out insane to give Goldsmith the Oscar solely when he went Satanic in '76.

Well, its a brilliant score, with Goldsmith capturing the entire emotional range of elation, suspicion, familial love, growing terror, inexplicable, smothering horror, and weighty heartbreak in a way unheard in any other horror film. Much like the actual movie, Goldsmith's score was a monumental achievement, and oh, how his choral arrangements have been swiped endlessly since in innumerable movies and TV series dealing with Satan, classical suggestions of evil, spiritual warfare, etc. I have to disagree with you about the Academy's decision that year. But Goldsmith was on a roll in '76, among his other compositions, the innovative score for Logan's Run.

And his OMEN sequel music in 1978 was even better (as was the film), especially in the moving music during the Damien/Mark dilemma. If I'd been a voter for musical score, I would have been forced to have a three way tie with OMEN II, CAPRICORN ONE and SUPERMAN.

Damien: Omen II and Capricorn One were standouts, to be sure, and I too would see them as a tie in terms of overall quality, whether they were written for films or not.

Which is fitting as it edges back to the main thread topic.

Heh.

 

[Sci]

Well, when it comes to Williams, I've found some pigeonhole his composing ability / merit with only a few scores between the end of the 70s and early 80s, which--if--hypothetically--one were to take it as his entire body of work, he would seem limited and repetitious with some exceptions (The Empire Strikes Back being such an exception). Looking at the bigger picture (e.g., the TV and movie credits I posted yesterday), one sees that he had a richer imagination than the BIG FANFARE type of scores he delivered for some of the films of Lucas, Spielberg and yes, Donner's Superman. He was more creatively inspired with (among other scores of the period) Dracula's mix of true horrific cues and tragic as opposed to traditionally sweeping romantic themes.

Personally, the best tracks of the Superman score are The Destruction of Krypton, The Death of Jonathan Kent and Super Dam and Finding Lois--not the main or end title.

Setting aside the Superman theme question -- one of the big reasons I consider Williams to be the world's greatest composer is that he can do these rousing fanfares that stick into your memory more than most, but he also regularly does smaller, more intimate work. His score for Lincoln is absolutely pitch-perfect, capturing the feeling of the 19th Century, the leadership genius of Lincoln, and the heartbreak of slavery, the war, and Lincoln's assassination. His score for Amistad captures both the sense of the culture clash at play, but also the bittersweet pain of Cinqué's final fate. His score for The Fabelmans never took over, but it absolutely captured the feeling of life in a dysfunctional middle-class mid-20th Century household from a child's point of view. Even in his action films, his scores can become very contemplative and melancholy -- "The Jedi Steps" from The Force Awakens really captures the feeling of encountering an ancient, sacred ruin where the weight of history is pressing down upon you. His score for Hook, in addition to the fanfare and the sense of whimsy and magic, has a strong undercurrent of melancholy, illustrating musically how the twin themes of childhood potential and inevitable mortality intertwine. Throughout his career, he has done so much more than his big rousing fanfares, and that's just as true today as it was almost half a century ago.

 

[Supervisor 194]

Trek_God_1 (and anyone else who'd like to respond),

I'm genuinely curious: What does Superman mean to you? What is Superman to you that makes you so passionate in promoting your preferred version and so derogatory towards the versions you don't care for?

For me personally, I love the Donner version (and the Silver and Bronze Age comics to a lesser extent) because it's what my mom used to explain my adoption to me as a little boy. I love the feeling of the William's theme, that everything is going to be okay. I love the inherent optimism in the concept. I love the idea of Superman always finding a way. I love the idea of Superman as a friend.

I work as a chaplain in a major metropolitan hospital and I see death and dying every day, so when I look for a Superman story, I look for one that inspires me and reminds me how much I loved the character as a boy (and still do).

 

[JD]

For me, I've always seen Superman as the ultimate good guy, somone inspires people to be their best selves. Now that's not to say he always can't make mistakes, and falter, but even when he does, he still ends up doing the right in the end.
He's the guy who will get an old lady's cat out of a tree in the morning, and then stop Lex Luthor's latest plot in the afternoon, and then get home in time for dinner with Lois in the evening.

 

[fireproof78]

Superman does the right thing. Good enough for me, even if it turns out poorly.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Setting aside the Superman theme question -- one of the big reasons I consider Williams to be the world's greatest composer is that he can do these rousing fanfares that stick into your memory more than most, but he also regularly does smaller, more intimate work. His score for Lincoln is absolutely pitch-perfect, capturing the feeling of the 19th Century, the leadership genius of Lincoln, and the heartbreak of slavery, the war, and Lincoln's assassination. His score for Amistad captures both the sense of the culture clash at play, but also the bittersweet pain of Cinqué's final fate. His score for The Fabelmans never took over, but it absolutely captured the feeling of life in a dysfunctional middle-class mid-20th Century household from a child's point of view.

That's the Williams that does not get enough attention, IMO. Lincoln, Amistad, etc., harken back to the more considered kind of composing Williams was doing as he broke out in the 60s. This is similar to his work for JFK, which had a memorable score extremely tailor-made for the manipulative personalities, darkness, mayhem and the sense of an elegiac cloud surrounding the assassination and its immediate aftermath. Listening to Williams explain how he approached JFK from a personal as well as historical perspective leads anyone understand why the score perfectly walked hand-in-hand to deliver such a powerful story. This score was praised, but it--like others in his catalog having nothing to do with the fantasies of Lucas, Spielberg or Donner--almost has been relegated to an afterthought when appraising his work.

Throughout his career, he has done so much more than his big rousing fanfares, and that's just as true today as it was almost half a century ago.

I feel that way about Miklós Rózsa to a degree, who cannot be mentioned without a reference to the undeniably great Ben Hur, but there's so much more to be found in The Lost Weekend or Brute Force.