Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 3x03 - "Seventeen Seconds"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
Moriarty was in TWO episodes.
I went back to reread, if you meant he's only in one episode of Picard, that's correct as we know right now. If you meant TNG, it was two episodes.
Curious are you just judging the show within itself, for your grading scale?
For myself I judge a show versus the canvas of tv of the era it's produced in. Now of course I can't watch all TV released in a year but I sample enough to get a mosaic of the range of quality that gets procured a year. And let me tell you while you get some wonderful gems there is a huge amount of crap also produced. I do tend to only include scripted programming in this grouping, there is just far, far too much non scripted programming for me to even get a ok sampling of.
While browsing the Picard hashtag on twitter, I came across someone live tweeting the Picard panel on some Star Trek Cruise. They said Marina Sirtis seemed displeased with her character arc this season and that she said she never wanted to play a mother on TV. I'm guessing that means she's probably unhappy with how much of Troi's story is tied up in being a mom and wife.
Guess that could also explain why she hasn't been out there promoting the show and basically been absent from the promo.
Guess that could also explain why she hasn't been out there promoting the show and basically been absent from the promo.
He's rightfully mad at Picard constantly openly contradicting him in front of the bridge. I believe Data had the same issue with Worf in Gambit. However Data allowed Worf the dignity of addressing this in private not in public.
To a large degree Riker is ultimately to blame. Picard was just an old man who went to him for help. Riker was the one who decided to involve Starfleet, hijack the Titan, etc. I think Shaw realizes this as his anger upon injury is seemingly aimed directly at Riker.
I'm a bit confused here. Why the Changeling goes to that extend to bait and trap Jean-luc Picard and Riker in this Nebula? What is the significant of a retired Admiral and Captain in the Star Trek 25th Century Geopolitical situation? They may be legends, but they no longer have any influence to the Starfleet. Even if they died, Starfleet will still fine. They just lose one ship, the Titan-A. Plus, Jean-luc and Riker only have minor contribution in the previous Dominion War. They should aim Sisko and other DS9 characters instead. And they also have to sabotage DS9 and the wormhole, rather than playing cat and mouse with these 2 old men.
What is the Changelings objective? I means the real objective? We know from DS9 that Changelings are the core of Dominion intelligent force. Their objectives are to spy, to sabotage, and to prepare for the next Dominion political move in the galaxy. They won't do such trivial things just to trap two old men who no longer have any significant role in the Starfleet and play with them with Shrike. Because they're the Dominion themselves.
So they had to give up in the Dominion War, because they couldn't use the Bajor Wormhole to move their fleet from Gamma Quadrant. So why don't they use the new-found artifical wormhole tech to connect both quadrant again and stage a new invasion to the Alpha and Beta Quadrant? Specially when their economic and military power in Gamma Quadrant still intact in the end of Dominion War. If they want to stage new invasion, then they can do it.
What is the Changelings objective? I means the real objective? We know from DS9 that Changelings are the core of Dominion intelligent force. Their objectives are to spy, to sabotage, and to prepare for the next Dominion political move in the galaxy. They won't do such trivial things just to trap two old men who no longer have any significant role in the Starfleet and play with them with Shrike. Because they're the Dominion themselves.
So they had to give up in the Dominion War, because they couldn't use the Bajor Wormhole to move their fleet from Gamma Quadrant. So why don't they use the new-found artifical wormhole tech to connect both quadrant again and stage a new invasion to the Alpha and Beta Quadrant? Specially when their economic and military power in Gamma Quadrant still intact in the end of Dominion War. If they want to stage new invasion, then they can do it.
Worf is a DS9 character. He alluded to Odo.
I gave this one a 10 because I really enjoyed it.
If they'd done the TNG characters like this (IE make them very relatable and human like they are here), I would have enjoyed 24th century Trek a lot more, and it's also probably why the only Berman era 24th century era Trek series I was a big fan of was DS9, although I did watch all 7 seasons of TNG and their resulting feature films.
- I'm surprised to hear claims that these writers are somehow doing a job of character assassination on Beverly Crusher, Sorry, don't see it. What? You hate the fact that they showed she's a actual human being who doesn't always make the best decisions, or allows her own emotional baggage to influence the type of choices she makes? Sorry but I don't see that as character assassination - I see it as fleshing out the personality of her character in a very relatable and human way.
- I LOVE 'Zen Worf' and for the first time since Star Trek: First Contact and the Riker/Deanna/Cochrane drunken bar scene, we have some TNG humor that's ACTUALLY laugh out loud funny. Dorn as Worf has some really great lines and amusing interaction that emote genuine laughter from me. And for the first time in a couple decades his 'straight man' bit works too. I didn't really care for Raffi in the first two episodes and whenever they cut to her storyline, I was like >Yawn< -- but once Worf showed up in person, and they started playing off each other...yeah, I know was looking forward to those scenes. Loved: "I am Worf, son of etc...etc. (all done in the old 'Classic Worf' cadence...but then..."I have made some Chamomile tea...Do you take sugar?..."
- The Changeling plot/connection...LOVE IT and the manner in which it was finally and fully introduced; and now that guy at the bar who dropped a 'fat 1701-D' miniature in his drink probably has a connection - it was a Changeling that was shadowing Picard, and once he heard what he and Riker were planning, he got on to the USS Titan replacing and masquerading as one of the crew and performing the sabotage we now know occurred. (And also kudos to this writing staff for NOT making it suddenly and easily detectable via a character bringing it up, and someone quickly doing an internal scan et. al. <--- Which was trope I despised in TNG - the old "Well, our sensors normally don't scan for >X<, but if we adjust them to now...Voila plot point exposed..." So yeah, happy with the way Jack and Seven reasoned it out, and that while not impossible to find; it wasn't so blatantly obvious that a quick internal scan (or an ensign looking to the left in a corridor) would IMMEDIATELY see it. Also love that they showed Engineering can be a dangerous place if you don't know exactly what's in there (IE 7 of 9 recognizing a dangerous gas leak by smell because she's worked in and with A LOT of Federation Engineering tech over the years.
Some Quibbles:
- Captain Vedic seemed VERY willing to blow the Titan away (and given the armament listed in episode 2, definitely has the capability to do so.) Yet, despite her threats, once various battles are joined, she seems to be holding back - YET NEITHER Shaw (before he's sent to sickbay), Riker, or Picard seem to pick up on that and use it to figure out a way to escape of get a signal out to Star Fleet. Not saying they'd be successful, but with their years of similar situations - seems like they were being passed the 'Idiot Ball' by the writing staff here.
- And like I said, while I like that the characters are all being written as more relatable human beings; Riker's reaction to the situation after HE (as the Captain in command) makes his own decision to FOLLOW a suggestion make by Picard; yet when it goes south, he orders Picard off the bridge with the line - "You killed us all..." For everyone saying the "Riker finally owned up to the situation he and Picard put the ship in..." - yeah, IMO he really taking the piss here as in the end, again as the Captain in command, he ultimately followed his Exec's suggestion. So sorry, that's still on him as much (and maybe moreso if he REALLY thought it was a bad choice - but did it anyway.
- Lastly, once Riker did have command, IDK why Picard didn't suggest Riker release 7 of 9, put her back 'on duty, and call her to the Bridge. She was one of the few really known loyal characters to him and Riker on the ship, so to leave her sitting in her quarters until Jack comes by to 'break her out'...yeah, here comes the Idiot Ball bouncing again into view.
But yeah, really looking forward to next week's episode.
(Oh, and count me also as someone who didn't have an issue with the Riker/Picard 20 years earlier de-aging. It didn't look 'uncanny valley' to me in an off putting way (unlike say the 'Princess Leia' de-aging bit in that other 'Star' IP's feature film Rogue One.) IDK - Is it because many fans KNOW they had to be doing de-aging, so they suddenly hyper focus in because they know it the case? I will say that Marina Sirtis image n the Holo Communicator looked horrid to me; but hey, it's a 'Bar Phone' so the connection would be great to begin with.
)
If they'd done the TNG characters like this (IE make them very relatable and human like they are here), I would have enjoyed 24th century Trek a lot more, and it's also probably why the only Berman era 24th century era Trek series I was a big fan of was DS9, although I did watch all 7 seasons of TNG and their resulting feature films.
- I'm surprised to hear claims that these writers are somehow doing a job of character assassination on Beverly Crusher, Sorry, don't see it. What? You hate the fact that they showed she's a actual human being who doesn't always make the best decisions, or allows her own emotional baggage to influence the type of choices she makes? Sorry but I don't see that as character assassination - I see it as fleshing out the personality of her character in a very relatable and human way.
- I LOVE 'Zen Worf' and for the first time since Star Trek: First Contact and the Riker/Deanna/Cochrane drunken bar scene, we have some TNG humor that's ACTUALLY laugh out loud funny. Dorn as Worf has some really great lines and amusing interaction that emote genuine laughter from me. And for the first time in a couple decades his 'straight man' bit works too. I didn't really care for Raffi in the first two episodes and whenever they cut to her storyline, I was like >Yawn< -- but once Worf showed up in person, and they started playing off each other...yeah, I know was looking forward to those scenes. Loved: "I am Worf, son of etc...etc. (all done in the old 'Classic Worf' cadence...but then..."I have made some Chamomile tea...Do you take sugar?..."
- The Changeling plot/connection...LOVE IT and the manner in which it was finally and fully introduced; and now that guy at the bar who dropped a 'fat 1701-D' miniature in his drink probably has a connection - it was a Changeling that was shadowing Picard, and once he heard what he and Riker were planning, he got on to the USS Titan replacing and masquerading as one of the crew and performing the sabotage we now know occurred. (And also kudos to this writing staff for NOT making it suddenly and easily detectable via a character bringing it up, and someone quickly doing an internal scan et. al. <--- Which was trope I despised in TNG - the old "Well, our sensors normally don't scan for >X<, but if we adjust them to now...Voila plot point exposed..." So yeah, happy with the way Jack and Seven reasoned it out, and that while not impossible to find; it wasn't so blatantly obvious that a quick internal scan (or an ensign looking to the left in a corridor) would IMMEDIATELY see it. Also love that they showed Engineering can be a dangerous place if you don't know exactly what's in there (IE 7 of 9 recognizing a dangerous gas leak by smell because she's worked in and with A LOT of Federation Engineering tech over the years.
Some Quibbles:
- Captain Vedic seemed VERY willing to blow the Titan away (and given the armament listed in episode 2, definitely has the capability to do so.) Yet, despite her threats, once various battles are joined, she seems to be holding back - YET NEITHER Shaw (before he's sent to sickbay), Riker, or Picard seem to pick up on that and use it to figure out a way to escape of get a signal out to Star Fleet. Not saying they'd be successful, but with their years of similar situations - seems like they were being passed the 'Idiot Ball' by the writing staff here.
- And like I said, while I like that the characters are all being written as more relatable human beings; Riker's reaction to the situation after HE (as the Captain in command) makes his own decision to FOLLOW a suggestion make by Picard; yet when it goes south, he orders Picard off the bridge with the line - "You killed us all..." For everyone saying the "Riker finally owned up to the situation he and Picard put the ship in..." - yeah, IMO he really taking the piss here as in the end, again as the Captain in command, he ultimately followed his Exec's suggestion. So sorry, that's still on him as much (and maybe moreso if he REALLY thought it was a bad choice - but did it anyway.
- Lastly, once Riker did have command, IDK why Picard didn't suggest Riker release 7 of 9, put her back 'on duty, and call her to the Bridge. She was one of the few really known loyal characters to him and Riker on the ship, so to leave her sitting in her quarters until Jack comes by to 'break her out'...yeah, here comes the Idiot Ball bouncing again into view.
But yeah, really looking forward to next week's episode.
(Oh, and count me also as someone who didn't have an issue with the Riker/Picard 20 years earlier de-aging. It didn't look 'uncanny valley' to me in an off putting way (unlike say the 'Princess Leia' de-aging bit in that other 'Star' IP's feature film Rogue One.) IDK - Is it because many fans KNOW they had to be doing de-aging, so they suddenly hyper focus in because they know it the case? I will say that Marina Sirtis image n the Holo Communicator looked horrid to me; but hey, it's a 'Bar Phone' so the connection would be great to begin with.
)Before I read everyone else's takes.
It was pretty good. I liked the Beverly/Picard scene the best. I think Worf & Raffi make a good team. Ensign LaForge & Seven pal up. But boy does it have holes.
I am a bit confused by Picard. And Riker. And Vadic.
Starting with JLP. I mean, Picard risks everyone's life to save Jack. Then talks to Beverly & finds out Jack did not want to see him & gets his fees-fees hurt, so blows by him in the hall & declares the relationship irreparable. And declares he is going to apologize to Shaw. Then 20 minutes later he is urging Riker to attack a vastly superior ship instead of running away because they can get behind her. Risking everyone's lives, again. What, like shields haven't been invented yet? Dumb.
And Riker believes him and then blames him when it goes wrong? WTF? It was your call, CAPTAIN! I guess Riker is now supposed to be so emotionally wounded by the loss of his son he always runs instead of fights? And cannot take responsibility for his own command decisions?
Boo! They both suck. Gotta think this is part of the Seven setup. Or just bad writing.
And Vadic. She could kill them. But doesn't. Because she wants Jack. But then leaves him to die. And, presumably, has a Changeling ally try to kill him.
And, why can't the Daystrom Institute take inventory? Shouldn't that have happened, like, right away after the Wormhole Weapon got stolen?
A 7 was generous. But I see I am on the stingy side.
It was pretty good. I liked the Beverly/Picard scene the best. I think Worf & Raffi make a good team. Ensign LaForge & Seven pal up. But boy does it have holes.
I am a bit confused by Picard. And Riker. And Vadic.
Starting with JLP. I mean, Picard risks everyone's life to save Jack. Then talks to Beverly & finds out Jack did not want to see him & gets his fees-fees hurt, so blows by him in the hall & declares the relationship irreparable. And declares he is going to apologize to Shaw. Then 20 minutes later he is urging Riker to attack a vastly superior ship instead of running away because they can get behind her. Risking everyone's lives, again. What, like shields haven't been invented yet? Dumb.
And Riker believes him and then blames him when it goes wrong? WTF? It was your call, CAPTAIN! I guess Riker is now supposed to be so emotionally wounded by the loss of his son he always runs instead of fights? And cannot take responsibility for his own command decisions?
Boo! They both suck. Gotta think this is part of the Seven setup. Or just bad writing.
And Vadic. She could kill them. But doesn't. Because she wants Jack. But then leaves him to die. And, presumably, has a Changeling ally try to kill him.
And, why can't the Daystrom Institute take inventory? Shouldn't that have happened, like, right away after the Wormhole Weapon got stolen?
A 7 was generous. But I see I am on the stingy side.
My theory is that the Founders used genetic engineering to turn the Vorta and Jem'hadar into the perfect tools to maintain their empire. If this is a renegade group, they might not have access to all of the Dominion's resources, but they'd still want to have underlings who could do all the dirty work and/or drudgery of running a major organization. Synths would be perfectly suited to be custom-crafted into fulfilling whatever needs their own splinter-Dominion might have, in one package. Both physically powerful enough to replace the Jem'hadar, and intelligent and adaptable enough to replace the Vorta.
That's a great question and it made me think! It's kind of both because I watch very little TV. I choose very carefully the series that I do watch, as in I consider them to be high quality. My ratings are in comparison to the select shows I watch. I simply cannot watch any of the huge amount of crap you mention!
If I were judging Picard against the whole landscape of scripted programming, I can see giving more higher than average ratings.
Basically, I compare episodes to a quality level that is sufficient to keep me watching a series. So, if it's average (a 7), it's good enough to keep me coming back for more but I'm also not thinking it's great relative to what I usually watch (but undoubtedly better than most series in the broad landscape). If a series is consistently below a 7, I'll stop watching eventually. It takes really solid stories to get an 8 or higher. 9s are near classics and 10s are classics. 9's and 10's are pretty rare for me.
This sounds like a quote from Spock.
You know the new Titan crew are good looking physically but come to think of it they do seem to come off as inexperienced under pressure compared to the miracle workers we see in past Treks including Strange New Worlds, Discovery, or even Prodigy.
First of all, in Discovery, Shenzhou first officer Burnham's orders contradicting Captain Georgiou's aren't immediately followed and in fact questioned while the crew check if the Captain's ok first. Somehow the entire Titan crew took a trip to the Ryton system (a trip that under normal speed is days away from Fed help per Shaw's own words), knowing it was against the Captain's orders and never once checking with the sleeping captain to try to line up his orders with Seven's. At least Burnham had to nerve pinch Georgiou first.
Second, the entire Titan crew saw Vadic's portal weapon in action. Not a single one of them mentioned the possibility that Vadic could portal their weapons back at them? For that matter, only Liam Shaw was the one who spotted the sheer improbability of Vadic repeatedly finding the Titan in the nebula (space is very, very, big, if Threepio from Star Wars were here he'd probably say something about the odds of Vadic finding them being 2,750 to 1), yet none of the other crew catch this either. What's the Vulcan lady there for, for show?
Sorry, it just seems glaring compared to the sheer ingenuity we see in Trek's other crews in the other shows.
First of all, in Discovery, Shenzhou first officer Burnham's orders contradicting Captain Georgiou's aren't immediately followed and in fact questioned while the crew check if the Captain's ok first. Somehow the entire Titan crew took a trip to the Ryton system (a trip that under normal speed is days away from Fed help per Shaw's own words), knowing it was against the Captain's orders and never once checking with the sleeping captain to try to line up his orders with Seven's. At least Burnham had to nerve pinch Georgiou first.
Second, the entire Titan crew saw Vadic's portal weapon in action. Not a single one of them mentioned the possibility that Vadic could portal their weapons back at them? For that matter, only Liam Shaw was the one who spotted the sheer improbability of Vadic repeatedly finding the Titan in the nebula (space is very, very, big, if Threepio from Star Wars were here he'd probably say something about the odds of Vadic finding them being 2,750 to 1), yet none of the other crew catch this either. What's the Vulcan lady there for, for show?
Sorry, it just seems glaring compared to the sheer ingenuity we see in Trek's other crews in the other shows.
Haven’t read through the thread yet, and given time I’m sure I’ll start analyzing the episode and nitpicking things and whatnot, but right now I’m just absolutely STUNNED. Like….10/10 easily. I laughed, I cried, I yelled out, “OH MY GOD” when the big reveal happened. I’m just overwhelmed by everything they just did in the span of one episode.
It's enjoyable. Just a few things would have changed. Just glad we are back in a starship. I gave this ep a 8.
Ah, so it is enjoyable, so it's more than better than nothing. But if it isn't enjoyable for others then it's not better than nothing. That's the point of my statement.
I like Shaw. I hope they don't kill him off. He was pretty much right about everything. I just hope he's not a changeling. Lol
The crew didn't know that, that whole discussion was behind closed doors.
I'm thinking we're going to find out that Lore somehow managed to escape his confinement from the Daystrom Institute on his own or perhaps with help from Moriarty.
(or maybe one of the scientists there did something stupid releasing Lore while working with B4's remains)
I still think that it's Lore that is manipulating the rogue changelings and Vadic.
He's the only one who'd have any kind of actual grievance that we know of against the Enterprise crew and already had experience doing the same underhanded stuff with Hugh's Borg.
It seems like the Titan-A was forced into a 'flytrap' to be held permanently.
Which is what Data and Picard did to Lore.
My guess anyway ...
(or maybe one of the scientists there did something stupid releasing Lore while working with B4's remains)
I still think that it's Lore that is manipulating the rogue changelings and Vadic.
He's the only one who'd have any kind of actual grievance that we know of against the Enterprise crew and already had experience doing the same underhanded stuff with Hugh's Borg.
It seems like the Titan-A was forced into a 'flytrap' to be held permanently.
Which is what Data and Picard did to Lore.
My guess anyway ...