Should current Trek drop the serialized format?

Discussion in 'Future of Trek' started by Sim, Dec 25, 2022.

  1. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    They have subspace radio. Obviously they transmitted the specs for how to build the technology. It's not like the Hirogen are primitive. They were a warp-capable power in the 14th century. They're more advanced than we are. The only reason they hadn't invented holographic technology already is that they didn't want to, not that they weren't capable of creating it once they had the incentive. All they needed was the blueprints, so to speak, and they could've built their own.


    Yes, obviously, but that does not make it correct to use the word "serialization" to refer to ALL forms of continuity. DS9 was an episodic show that occasionally experimented with serialization. That does not make it a serialized show.


    Yes, of course an episodic show can have serialized elements. Again, that does not mean serialization is a synonym for continuity.
     
  2. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    But the distance between "THE KILLING GAME, PART II" and the "FLESH AND BLOOD" two-parter was so massive, subspace radio was still too far for them to get specs and build. The distance gained by Voyager...


    "HOPE AND FEAR" - 300 light years
    "NIGHT" - 2,500 light years, based on Seven saying that was how far they could see having no systems or planets. Likely about 3 years shaved off.
    "TIMELESS" - 10 years closer, no distance said... probably about 9-10,000 light years.
    "DARK FRONTIER" - 20,000 light years, Janeway says about 15 years closer.
    "DRAGON'S TEETH" - over 200 light years
    "THE VOYAGER CONSPIRACY" - 30 sectors, 3 years.


    So a minimum of 33,000 light years. Voyager couldn't get a subspace message to the Alpha Quadrant at roughly the same distance without the MIDAS array by the time of season 7.

    I don't buy that the Hirogen could do that, even advanced as their tech seemed. (And before you mention the communucations relay network Voyager used in "MESSAGE IN A BOTTLE", it was rendered unusable by anyone in "HUNTERS".)
     
  3. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    They're nomads who've been spreading across the galaxy for a thousand years. Since the Hirogen used a subspace relay network that spanned half the galaxy before it was destroyed, it stands to reason that Hirogen populations had spread throughout the entire volume covered by that network. It's the nature of predators to spread out widely so they don't compete over the same hunting grounds, so if you have a large number of predatory packs with a hunting range of similar radius, they will logically end up more or less evenly distributed through the territory.

    So while communication would've been slower without the comm network, any given Hirogen community would've probably been in more local comms range of adjacent communities, since they'd want to track each other's movements to avoid impinging on each other's hunting grounds. So the information could've spread relay-style from one to the next to the next. Assume a given Hirogen band is only in subspace contact with other Hirogen bands within, say, a thousand light years; as long as there are 35-40 different Hirogen communities spread out roughly evenly over the distance, it would still be possible to relay the information over 33,000 light years within a reasonable amount of time. It's a bit of a reach, perhaps, but hardly impossible.
     
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  4. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    As you said, that is a big reach. Especially considering the Alpha in "THE KILLING GAME" saying the Hirogen are hunting themselves into extinction. It was the main reason why he was so enamored by the holodeck technology to begin with.
     
  5. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    No, I said it's a bit of a reach. The only part of it I find implausible is the speed at which the knowledge is propagated; otherwise, the whole scenario makes perfect sense to me. The only arguments I ever hear against it seem to be rooted in the failure to understand a) how widespread nomadic societies are and b) how ancient and advanced the Hirogen are.


    Karr was thinking in the long term, on the scale of centuries. "In another thousand years, no one will remember the name 'Hirogen.'" That doesn't mean their population was already sparse in the present. It just meant that he recognized it wasn't a sustainable way of life going forward, in the same way Mirror Spock recognized that the Empire would inevitably fall within a matter of centuries even though it was at the peak of its power in his own time.
     
  6. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I get that they are nomadic. It was established in "HUNTERS". What was also established there is that they rarely fight together or travel together, which makes it unlikely they would bother to mobilize and create those holographic training facilities so quickly.

    As far as I know, nomads don't generally work in groups.
     
  7. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Well, that's a shockingly ignorant and dehumanizing mischaracterization of nomadic societies. Ever hear of the Mongols? They were nomadic pastoralists, and they built the largest land empire in pre-modern history. Similarly, Arabs have historically been largely nomadic, at least pre-Islam, and they built one of the most widespread and enduring civilizations on Earth. Nomads are great at cooperating. They just do it on the move.

    Nomads don't live a migratory life because they're incapable of sedentary living, but because migratory living works better in the ecological niches they occupy. The racist myth is that nomads are more primitive than sedentary civilizations, but in fact, they mostly descended from sedentary civilizations and adopted nomadic living once they obtained domesticated camels or horses, because that lifestyle enabled them to develop environments that sedentary populations had been unable to develop, such as the desert or the steppes.

    Nomadic communities are small individually, but they are groups of dozens or hundreds of people, who naturally have to cooperate among themselves. And they have no problem working together in larger groups when it's necessary to do bigger things, like elect a new khan or conquer most of Eurasia. Many nomadic societies have a number of fixed regional settlements that they periodically migrate among from season to season, e.g. a winter home and a summer home, so there's always a fair-sized population within each settlement even though it's not the same people year-round.

    As for the Hirogen, it's true that as predators rather than omnivores like humans, they would tend to organize in smaller population groupings, probably something more like the size of a wolf pack, say, and would not cooperate with outside groups as easily as humans do. But clearly they have enough technological sophistication within each band to build and maintain starships, which has got to be orders of magnitude harder than building holodecks.
     
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  8. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In nowhere in my post did I mention they were primitive or was I dehumanizing the Hirogen or nomads in general. I simply stated they don't generally work in groups.

    Don't assume such things when nothing points to that. It's precisely why many people don't bother working in groups... the assumptions and level of arrogance that comes with it when many people do such things.

    Don't do it again with any of my posts, please.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2023
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  9. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I wish Trek found that perfect medium. One of the great aspects of DS9 (And shows like Farscape and Buffy) was that there was room for serialization and episodic shows. We got to see the crews with their hair down, what they do on their down time and it didn't feel like the universe was going to come to an end. I remember that episode of Discovery where Airiam died (I forgot what it was called) and I wished we actually had an episode or 2 actually showing that crew commaderee. The 10 episode limit on shows feels too small and I wish they would go to somewhere between 13 and 15. I admit the 22 episode seasons are pretty much done, but why not have some middle ground. Also, I don't want arcs where the universe is coming to an end. One thing that disappointed me about Discovery Season 2's arc was they actually had a great idea with the Red Angel and the different points in space but then they brought in the AI aspect and the season got convoluted. It still probably is my favorite season of that show mainly because of the character work and Pike and Saru.

    I also agree that the mystery arcs need to end soon. It seems like all the shows have this formula where you have this big mystery to solve and then once it's solved the season is over. If you're going to do a mystery arc, solve it in 3 episodes and then pursue the consequences of that, or build to a new arc. I just rewatched Angel the last month and I think that series was awesome when it came to building from one arc to the next organically. Once you get to the end of the season it felt like you had just seen 3 mini seasons in one.
     
  10. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    SUPERNATURAL was also fantastic at doing arcs with standalones peppered everywhere. And a lot of their very best were standalones. (Particularly the humorous ones, like "THE FRENCH MISTAKE" and "SCOOBYNATURAL".)

    One of my favorite seasons was season 6... it had 2 main arcs, and the first was mostly solved by the middle of the season, leaving the back half to do the other main arc. The great thing about it was that they even tied into another, and it felt like it was organic process.


    (SUPERNATURAL is a show I would easily rewatch. Damn it, I miss those boys.)
     
  11. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Give me good continuity, be it in serialized or episodic form. If you want scifi inspiration watch Red vs. Blue.
     
  12. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Not in Star Trek, sorry.

    ;)
     
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  13. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    The "search for seven signals" arc seemed to me like it was designed to be a catalyst for a series of episodic stories set in seven different places and situations, kind of like Doctor Who's Key to Time season. But then the showrunners were fired after four episodes and the storyline swerved in a new direction that was more serialized.


    I like the way the Japanese Kamen Rider franchise tends to handle its serialization. Many of its seasons are broken down into 4-6 sub-arcs, and the climax of each one opens up a new phase of the story with new situations and villains and a larger scope. I used that as the model for my Tangent Knights audio novel trilogy.
     
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  14. Uhura's Song

    Uhura's Song Captain Captain

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    Yes. The hour shows, anyway.
     
  15. Danja

    Danja Commodore Commodore

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    Covid-19 upended PIC S2 (the show had to turn on a dime due to Covid restrictions).
     
  16. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Covid is not to blame for poor writing of a season arc.
     
  17. Danja

    Danja Commodore Commodore

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    It played a role in it (The show had to be filmed almost completely on location. The cast had to be split up into pairs.)

    It impacted the writing. (How many scripts had to be tossed out the window?)
     
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  18. Eckauskas

    Eckauskas Commander Red Shirt

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    To an extent, yes. DS9 showed that it’s possible to have a TV show that’s primarily episodic, while still having a storyline that developed over multiple seasons.
     
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  19. Serveaux

    Serveaux Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    Yeah, like a rock.
     
  20. Amasov

    Amasov Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I feel less strongly about serialization now that there are other Star Trek series on the air that don't lean into it as strongly as Discovery and Picard do.

    Nevertheless, the Star Trek series that do lean into it with this season-long story arcs only make me loathe it more. I'm truly exhausted by season-long arcs and the current crop of serialized Treks have yet to show me they can do it well. I find that a lot of their stories start of pretty compelling, then lag in the middle, and fall apart in the end. For me, this was the case with Discovery in seasons 2, 3, and 4, and Picard in season 2.

    Strange New Worlds may be utilizing an entirely unoriginal format, but, it's used to refreshing effect. Sometimes, I just want a story to have a beginning, middle, and end and that be that.

    But also in LOST's case, they were actually making it up as they went a long at the start. Some time around season 3, there was a huge announcement that the show would end in 2010 after six seasons. It was then the showrunners had to somehow figure out how to bring all of this together over the next three seasons. This was when the series began to really collapse under its own weight, I thought.

    I hear this a lot, but, was this the case with any other TV series in production at the time? And I don't mean any other Star Trek series. Did any network shows see a steep decline in quality because of COVID? Serious question.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2023
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