Plot Holes in 'First Contact'

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by MonoLake82, Dec 12, 2022.

  1. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Hard to say. I imagine cleaning up the E-E after the events of the film took months, to ensure all the Borg tech had been fully removed from the ship as much as for any other reason. If that crewman was left in the corridor where Picard killed him and the cleanup crews were doing full autopsies, it's entirely possible they figured out that the crewman hadn't been fully assimilated and died from a phaser hit, which might lead to questions.

    Under the circumstances though, it's nearly impossible for me to believe it would lead to charges. When the E-D recaptured Locutus they had the relative luxury of taking their time figuring out what they could do to salvage Picard. Under the circumstances portrayed in the film, Our Heroes had neither the time nor available resources to focus on unassimilating anyone. Heck, they didn't even have any proper containment options.
     
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  2. Imaus

    Imaus Captain Captain

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    That second one feels more right and wow...that's beautiful.
     
  3. Mage

    Mage Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Someone mentioned the time it took for the Enterprise to get back to Earth and that it felt so fast.

    I can't remember where I read this, but I loved this concept.
    The fleet was assembled in the Typhon Sector. It started its fight with the cube there. Big battle, that continued on route to Earth. Perhaps in pursuit of the cube, firing shots during warp, perhaps some moments where everyone fell out of warp. I don't know.
    This explains a severely crippled Defiant. It wasn't damaged in a few shots during a couple of minutes of battle. It sustained severe damage after hours (days maybe?) of combat. The fleet gained and lost ships during the travel time it took to get to Earth.
    Picard decided to just go to Earth straight away.

    Remember, when they encounter the Cube in the Sol system, it has sustained heavy damage as well. Over the course a very drawn out battle between the fleet and the Cube.

    Anyway, I always liked that idea and kept it as head canon.
     
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  4. Tosk

    Tosk Admiral Admiral

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    Agreed, and I don't think you even need head-canon for that one. I've always argued that the film itself tells us that the Borg vs Starfleet battle lasted at least three or four hours based on the dialogue.
     
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  5. Mage

    Mage Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So this was literally recommended to me by YouTube two minutes ago.
    I'm going to watch it later today, I think I have seen this before.

     
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  6. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    One of my favorite plot holes is that, given that Zephram Cochrane was a major player in the ensuing history... what about the test of his crew? The Borg slaughtered them, but history was apparently unchanged. I know that Trek follows the "durable history" model, but that's a little much.
     
  7. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    So, a plot hole is a contradiction in the internal logic of a story. A lot of these complaints are not really plot holes as much as they are nit-picks. But...

    Sure. And at no point does the film give us any information to imply that they aren't really far apart from each other. The scene cuts from the Enterprise warping away from the Neutral Zone to high Earth orbit without telling us how much time has passed. There's no reason whatsoever to think that days haven't passed between the scenes -- and there's no reason for the film to go into that detail, because it's not relevant to the narrative and to do so would interrupt the pacing and tension that the earlier scenes have worked to build.

    That they decided to use time travel to assimilate Earth after combat in 2373 instead of traveling back in time at a point outside of Federation space, then warping to Earth, is indeed a plot hole.

    I don't think it "begs questions on everything from season 4 onward." Starfleet was clearly concerned about how Picard would respond to encountering the Borg Collective for the first time since his assimilation. It's a situation he hasn't been in since "The Best of Both Worlds."

    It's not a WTF moment. It's a clear instance of, the admiral's ship had been destroyed, the surviving ships were damaged, the chaos of battle was starting to overcome the chain of command -- and then the flagship of the fleet, undamaged, with a captain who is indicating he has tactical knowledge of the cube that the rest of Starfleet lacks. It's not that unbelievable.

    Quantum torpedoes had previously appeared on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. I think it's clear that the fleet had been using quantum torpedoes. If they weren't clearly visible in the part of the battle we saw before the Enterprise joined the fight, we can presume the fleet had already used up all their quantum torpedoes.

    "The Defiant was designed to fight the Borg but wasn't as good at the job as we had hoped" is not a plot hole. It may be a frustrating plot development, but in real life machines that are designed for a particular task turn out not to be very good at that task in the field all the time. Nothing about that is implausible or breaks the internal logic of the story.

    That's not actually a plot hole. "Something didn't work right" is a plot device, but nothing about it breaks the internal logic of the story.

    This not only doesn't break the internal logic of the story, but it is the story. The entire point of the film is that his unresolved trauma has driven Picard to the darkest part of himself.

    Except it's not "vengeance story." The entire point of the film was that Picard needed to stop seeking vengeance.

    Star Trek has its heart, and also nothing about these complaints are plot holes.

    This is also not a plot hole. It's also arguably itself a critique of the unquestioning institutionalist ideology of prior installments of Star Trek.

    That's not a plot hole, it's an unanswered question. Again, nothing about that breaks the internal logic of the story.

    I assume that history recorded the other pilot as having died in an Eastern Coalition attack the night before, so Cochrane and Lily made the flight alone.
     
  8. UssGlenn

    UssGlenn Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Not is plan A is "Assimilate Earth and all their most advanced tech" and Plan B is "The Federation has proven difficult one to many times, use time travel to prevent them from existing"
     
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  9. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    The Borg seek to add biological and technological distinctiveness to their collective. Best way to do that is assimilate the Federation in the present.

    Indeed. The other captains probably wondered why Pucard wasn't there in the first place.

    Besides, Picard acted with confidence and decisiveness. A fleet who had had its butt kicked hard for hours, and just lost its commander... they'd take any port in a storm offered.

    Some ships fired quantum, others fired photons. Not all ships are configured for the newer and more powerful weapons. It's like trying to put 5-inch guns on a ship that only has thick enough deck plates to manage 3-inch... it just won't work.

    The Defiant was meant to be mass produced and sent against the Borg in fleet strength. We saw that Worf's pulse phaser barrages were chewing holes in the cube... imagine what dozens or hundreds of similar assaults would have done! By the time the Enterprise arrived, Picard might have had nothing to do but send out medical teams to aid the surviving ships and chase down escape pods.

    Well, if you're gonna predestination paradox it, sure... :shrug:
     
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  10. Farscape One

    Farscape One Vice Admiral Admiral

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    As strange as this might sound, it actually makes better sense for the Borg to assimilate Earth in the past than the present.

    At the time of FIRST CONTACT, they had already assimilated a LOT of Starfleet officers and some ships, so they probably already got all the advanced stuff they can get out of the Federation at the moment.

    And since they would still have all that knowledge going back in time, they can assimilate ships and hardware and easily bring it up to their current specs, plus have billions of new drones because they would encounter no resistance.

    Assimilating the Alpha Quadrant at that point would be a cakewalk.


    The only thing that doesn't fit is why didn't they just use the time travel in the Delta Quadrant and just warp to Earth. Maybe that particular trick only works in close proximity.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2023
  11. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But again, wouldn't it make more sense to just have a different cube do the time travel at a distance outside Federation space so that Starfleet doesn't detect the temporal incursion and thwart it (like what actually happened)?
     
  12. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Enterprise would have had a small number of stasis pods on hand, or failing that Janeway did not invent transportor suspension. However I suspect that a battle ready Drone can fight being transported anywhere, otherwise O'Brien would have just transported them into space at every encounter and been given a dozen Christopher Pike Medals of Valor. So kick the shit out of a drone till it's punch drunk and then transport them into suspension until science can reclaim their personhood.

    Any blue Team should have thought of this, during war games.
     
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  13. Qonundrum

    Qonundrum Vice Admiral Admiral

    That's true; TBOBW had the luxury of being thrown to the side, in what felt like an organic plot development rather than a contrived one. Pt 2 is considerably underrated, for the most part, IMHO. Some contrivances are there - that's inevitable, but those don't feel jarring or putting some viewers out of the proceedings compared to what FC put out -- among fans and critics, YMMV of course and rewatchings always yield more detail either not seen before, or affirms, or refreshes to disprove one's previous reactions. It's all good. :D

    As for TBOBW, Locutus isn't very-well guarded either - he clearly is being guarded, presumably near the middle of the cube where it's hardest to get to. Given the sheer volume of Borg bobbering about, there's also the point regarding the number of phaser hits they take before they adapt - and this time they don't, oddly - that's pretty amazing as well, since pt 1 had phasers re-tuned with a random frequency generator, which the Borg were shown to have compensated for adapted to... Of course, the TV show needed to bring back its lead character, whose contract was up for renewal - hence the cliffhanger in the first place. Regarding the different in context for FC, I just prefer the notion Picard was so enraged with his hatred of Borg, since he wasn't thinking of "get some tranquilizers that might knock them out" or other alternatives. Unless none existed, but Picard doesn't even, as Scotty might say, "shed one bloody tear" and unlike Klingons, humans have tear ducts. Besides, the Borg technology probably would filter it out anyway, assuming no species ever attempted such a thing in the past. (As with most things Trek, everything happens at the speed of the random plot generator. Ideally they aren't noticed or rendered minuscule by comparison to the rest of the story. ) Again, I think the idea was Picard to be so overwrought, but it begs so many questions needlessly.

    Back to FC, the oft-used get-out-of-plot-free-card plot device of "The Borg will do nothing unless they see someone as a threat" is also utter gobbins, considering Picard and Lily wander around the their not-quite-yet-fully-commandeered ship with phasers, which apparently still work -- don't the Borg throw up a field that covers the entire range of frequencies by this point, since they can do just about everything else? In TNG, their force fields come up then down quickly as well, for the best utilization of power possible. Either way, phaser frequency bandwidth isn't infinite, the same technology is used for all so "each phaser will" is ultimately nonsense, and there's an impasse. By now that impasse should have been breached, but they play the same broken record in VOY as well, only VOY is spat on and FC heralded (when VOY sometimes deserves credit and FC rightly having the same nitpicks pointed out, as FC started the ball rolling - not VOY, but I digress.) Of all creatures in the universe, the ginormous collective known as "The Borg" would not forget Picard/Locutus/Picard/makesnodifferenceatthispoint, so as he's strutting down the corridors with the only thing missing being a Bee Gees song as incidental music, one would think any drone he's passing by would be quick to point and say "Hey Fred and Ethel, isn't he like still a threat given everything that's happened to his point? He's even armed and weilding a weapon. Isn't that a threat, even at face value?" or something. And yet no Borg he's passing opts to delay plugging in a part for 10 seconds just to pump in a few nanoprobes to stop a known threat and a big one at that. (Really, did Queen really say "Leave him and anyone with alone? He's mine? Screw logic and the known threat all these pesky little humans and other Federation beings provide?" That's great for a Bond villain. Not so much given the background of the Borg, whether or not there's a Queen handing out royal jelly. Even Guinan pointed out that they don't stop or do things piecemeal, and Picard's wandering around broken in several pieces and in terms of hierarchical importance, his being there is more a threat than plugging in a bric-a-brac as Picard could turn around, say "Yoink!" like Bugs Bunny, and remove it. After all these centuries the Borg gestalt is now so selectively dim? But to be fair, Guinan's experience is anecdotal and not gospel, and considering how underdeveloped human/Federation technology is, the only reason the Borg wanted Picard (and by extension the Federation) is to seek out all the strange new worlds, and to assimilate all life forms -- had anything of value presented itself to the varying species. Federation technology, or human technology for the bulk of 1701-D, is clearly nothing compared to the Borg but they still had something of value beyond that. )

    Overlooking how Borg won't be bothered with a random and threatening element (1701-E crewmembers as a (surprisng-to-nobody-except-borg?!) resistance force trying to take back their ship from the begins that are still in the process of commandeering it until long after they show up in ways they normally wouldn't, Given the importance of the deflector dish in FC, Picard says "don't shoot near there, you may hit it" - later in the same scene, guess who fires CENTIMETERS away from its edge to stop a Borg? So glad he didn't miss, but Picard already said not to fire. They disconnect the dish and blow it up anyway. So now any cosmic dust speck will damage the hull, never mind meteroids, satellites, and other space junk they can't steer clear of. Don't they keep a spare on board, or will a new one be ready on Tuesday? "Assimilate this!", indeed - that moment needed backing music from Austin Powers... The chronotechnobabble warp field said in 2 seconds to returnto the 24th century was gobbins too. (at least I didn't mention how the scale of the dish set was too small, at full scale it would have been a larger obstacle to avoid, no pun intended...)
     
  14. UssGlenn

    UssGlenn Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    they only disconnected and blew up the particle emitter, the rest of the dish is fine.
     
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  15. Oddish

    Oddish Admiral Admiral

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    Regarding the killing of friendlies who are in the process of assimilation, that's just a reality of war. If left unopposed, that injected crewman will become a Borg drone, and presumably gain the Borg's adaptation ability. While still in the early stages, as seen with the crewman Picard shot and the ill-fated Lt. Hawk, phasers will still kill them.

    It's not the crewman's fault that he is now an enemy soldier, but he is an enemy soldier, and must be treated accordingly.
     
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  16. Qonundrum

    Qonundrum Vice Admiral Admiral


    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Particle_emitter

    Aren't the particles supposed to help deflect? The component is placed there for a practical reason. Memory Alpha doesn't have much on this component... oddly... but the component is surely related to the deflector's function. There's even more information on the

    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Interplexing_beacon

    by comparison, and there's nothing that really states their beacon has to be placed around a particle emitter - though the implied reason is an easy one to guess. :D

    I'm amazed at how much detail was put into some aspects of the FC script, yet how whimsical other aspects are.
     
  17. Qonundrum

    Qonundrum Vice Admiral Admiral

    Like what Admiral Hanson said, or at least alluded to, in TBOBW. Even Riker (in pt 1) went from belaying Shelby (knowing the same thing as Hanson, which Hanson would later say in pt 2), to acquiescing. :)
     
  18. UssGlenn

    UssGlenn Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It seems to me that under normal operations the dish generates a field that pushes things away. The Particle emitter is only used when the dish does something exotic like shoot out gravitons. Interestingly, the Borg emit chronometric particles to make the vortex, so you would think that the Enterprise would need to do the same later, and thus use the missing particle emitter. However they instead "reconfigured our warp field to match the chronometric readings of the Borg sphere". Whatever that entails it means they didn't need to use the missing piece of the defector.
     
  19. The_Baron

    The_Baron Captain Captain

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    I never really considered assimilating 21st century Earth as the borgs initial plan, or even as a means to get technology.

    By the time they travel back in time, they've been defeated twice in their efforts to assimilate earth. The federation is a very real threat to them, something they've never really had to face. So they travel back as a last-resort to eliminate that threat before it ever exists.

    Course, if they had succeeded then species 8472 would very likely have wiped out the Borg anyway, so in a way Picards actions in First Contact actually saved the Borg.
     
  20. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    But there's no evidence that the Federation is a very real threat to them.

    During BoBW a single cube made it to Earth and would have assimilated the planet except for some unorthodox thinking by one William Riker and the Borg failing to keep their firewall software up to date.

    In FC a single cube made it to Earth and might have assimilated the planet except for Picard retaining a link to the Collective (apparently the Borg continue to fail to keep their firewall software up to date).

    If the Borg had sent two cubes, or ten cubes, or shown any real desire to assimilate Earth, it would have been a very different story.

    The Borg aren't trying to assimilate the Federation; they're toying with it.
     
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