• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Cara Dune

People get fired sometimes after doing a bad job. It's actually impressive she has held onto her job for as long as she has had.
Rumors of her firing have been going around since TFA. Seriously? That's the evidence? There are six, count them, six, upcoming shows for Star Wars, keeping subscriptions to Disney+ continuing on and increasing Disney's own revenues, as well as LFL's.

So, yeah, what bad job? Stable output and predictable income are usually considered good jobs.

Again, internet rumor and speculation about the internal business affairs of Disney and LFL are not evidence.
The Last Jedi was definitely the place where general enthusiasm for the ST seemed to deflate, in contrast to TFA which was rather well received at the time. And I tend to think the positive reception of TFA had a lot to do with people wanting to get over the PT. For the better part of 20 years the prequels were the thing to hate, now the ST is the trilogy to hate. Even TCW was poorly received at first, until a light bulb went on and people realized it was another stick to bash the prequels with. So I'd say it's not about contempt toward Star Wars in general, but contempt toward specific projects at a given point in time.
Indeed. There seems to be a general amnesia that forgets just how despised the PT was at the time. Not just, "Oh, those movies." No, the PT was actively despised, and TCW was not regarded as positively initially, especially with the film. I recall the waning enthusiasm after going to midnight showings for the PT films. Each film saw less and less support and then the PT was regarded as an albatross around the neck of the franchise.

Now, the ST has taken that title and people act like this is some new thing. It's not.
 
It should be remembered that TLJ was before The Mandalorean came out. The live action streaming shows have altered the landscape for Lucasfilm. In addition, the final season of The Clone Wars came out. A lot has happened since The Rise of Skywalker came out, and a lot of greatly anticipated shows are still coming this year and next year, in addition to stuff that is still pre-production.
 
Also I think it's a bit inaccurate to say the reception to TFA positive. I mean it was nowhere near as divisive as TLJ was, but it was still heavily criticised for being a shallow, mindless rehash, for having an incoherent plot, a third act twist that came out of nowhere, a script that reeked of late re-writes, some very murky world building for an established franchise story, and a cliffhanger ending guaranteed to hamstring the next film maker. And those were just the legitimate complaints; it also saw it's share of nonsense criticism for daring to have a female lead show the natural proficiency of basically any heroes' journey protagonist ever. Not nearly as much BS that was directed at Kelly Marie Tran, but it was there all the same. (Full disclosure; TLJ is my favourite of the ST, followed by TFA)

The ST criticism was always there, it just compounded with each entry. First for not being original enough, then for daring being too original (and a little uneven), then finally for even less original than the first one and also treating the audience with utter contempt.
And yes, none of this kind of backlash is new. The PT was a punching bag of the fandom (mostly from older fans, surprise, surprise!) for years until the kids that it was actually made for grew up and gained a voice of their own. Even in the OT, the kids that were there in '77 were teens by the time '83 came around and they *hated* the Ewoks, yet the kids who were the age Lucas was actually catering for loved them, and largely still do.

As for what "lessons" were learned directly from TLJ's reception . . . it's difficult to say given the creative choices that immediately followed with TRoS, most of which felt like panicked backpaddling combined with more of the "mystery box" nonsense that crippled the trilogy from the get-go.

So yeah I tend to agree the current trajectory of LF likely has more to do with the success of The Mandalorian than the failures of the ST. As a rule, Hollywood is pretty bad at reflecting on mistakes (and when they do, rarely take away the right message) but they know how to follow successful trends.
 
Reverend said:
combined with more of the "mystery box" nonsense that crippled the trilogy from the get-go.
I don't know what this means. Because it was the end, TROS was forced to answer the mystery box questions, not create more mystery boxes. Unless you mean "what was Finn talking about".
 
"What was Finn talking about." "How did Palpatine return." "How/when/who/where/what Rey Palpatine!?" "dyad in the force whatnow?"
I also class adding new major characters that add nothing to the film and just eat time at the expense of established characters and plots as an extension of JJA's "mystery box" obsession. At the end of the day, it's not really about the "mystery" so much as just waving something superficially cool/tantalising in front of the audience, then whipping it away and waving another shining thing at them so you don't have to go the the effort of actually thinking it through. See also: the McGuffin shuffle, and nonsense like "light skipping" and magically transporting items though force visions. There's is a clear pattern of behaviour.

It's all narrative artifice. Which is fine in and of itself since all storytelling is artifice, but it's really sloppy work. It's like watching a magician clumsily botch a card trick, then immediately start desperately waving coloured handkerchiefs around before going right back to botching the exact same card trick again as if the audience didn't notice the first time.
I honestly can't decide if JJA is lazy or just a mid-talent hack punching way above his weight. I honestly don't want to think either thing since from everything I've seen of him he seems like a genuinely nice bloke . . . and yet here we are.
 
Last edited:
"How did Palpatine return." "How/when/who/where/what Rey Palpatine!?" "dyad in the force whatnow?"
None of these are mystery boxes. Rey Palpatine is the answer to one of TFA's mystery boxes, not a mystery box in itself. How Palpatine returned is covered by the film, it's just that the film fails to explicitly connect all the dots for the audience, because the whole idea is stolen from Dark Empire, and the film was not exactly in a position to admit that outright. But the dots are there.
and magically transporting items though force visions.
That was carried over from TLJ. So it's a case of Abrams taking something Johnson actually started and running with it. And again, nothing to do with the mystery box concept.
 
Well, said before, if you need a novel, comic, coffee book, to explain your movie, you made a bad movie. Rise of Skywalker needed alot of explaining, which didn't happen in the movie.
 
Indeed; I'm well aware of what all the answers are to those questions, but only because I basically read almost everything Star Wars. The film does nothing to account for any of it. That's just careless storytelling. As noted, instead of actually spending the time to fill in these information gaps and tighten the story, they just waffle and cram in more elements that do nothing. It's narrative chaff. Plain and simple.

Hell even the thing with Finn falls under this since if you delete that one line . . . then there's no problem. They didn't follow up on it because they had no interest in doing so. The only reason that line exists is because it's a tantalizing thing *in the moment*. That's all that seems to matter; hopping from one moment to the next. It's like that whole BS 'lightskipping' sequence was the entire movie in microcosm. "What was that?" "Forget about that, look at this!" "OK, what is that?" "Nevermind that, check this out!" Rinse & repeat.
Say what you will about Lucas, at least he actually knew what the fuck he was doing.
 
Last edited:
Well, said before, if you need a novel, comic, coffee book, to explain your movie, you made a bad movie. Rise of Skywalker needed alot of explaining, which didn't happen in the movie.
Well, that's my Star Wars experience so par for the course for my money. I know films should stand alone, but ever since the PT the reliance is more and more on secondary materials. Which doesn't make it ok but it's something I'm used to. Mileage, etc.
 
Well, said before, if you need a novel, comic, coffee book, to explain your movie, you made a bad movie. Rise of Skywalker needed alot of explaining, which didn't happen in the movie.
Essence transfer is not only in the movie but also a pretty important plot point; cloning happening on Exegol is in the movie; a character in the movie explicitly states that cloning was involved in Palpatine's return. You don't have to read a book to put these things together.
Reverend said:
It's like that whole BS 'lightskipping' sequence was the entire movie in microcosm.
Lightspeed skipping is really just an extrapolation of things that had already appeared in earlier projects. The 'damage', so to speak, was already done in TFA. Abrams does have a thing about breaking established rules.
 
Last edited:
Well, that's my Star Wars experience so par for the course for my money. I know films should stand alone, but ever since the PT the reliance is more and more on secondary materials. Which doesn't make it ok but it's something I'm used to. Mileage, etc.
It's fine to have other stories/mediums to pick up some minor threads and expand upon them. It's quite something else if they're necessary to be able to make heads or tails of the central plot.

The closest Lucas ever got to this territory was AotC and the whole Sifo-Dias/Tyranus thing, which was admittedly an unnecessary complication. Ultimately it didn't matter that he didn't go over every step of the conspiracy because the end of the movie revealed that Dooku was Tyranus. That the Sith were behind it all (again) was all that was needed.
 
Last edited:
It's fine to have other stories/mediums to pick up some minor threads and expand upon them. It's quite something else if they're necessary to be able to make heads or tails of the central plot.

The closest Lucas ever got to this territory was AotC and the whole Sifo-Dias/Tyranus thing, which was admittedly an unnecessary complication. Ultimately it didn't matter that he didn't go over every step of the conspiracy because the end of the movie revealed that Dooku was Tyranus. That the Sith were behind it all (again) was all that was needed.
Mileage will vary. I think TPM for me was a confusing mess until I read the novel and felt I had more solid footing with what the story was to be. Similarly with ROTS and Grevious. So, for me, TPM was my first encounter with this where the central conflict didn't make sense until reading ancillary material. Like, even at 15 watching it in the theater I was left going, "Huh?"

Vs. TROS which I actually understood OK in the theater.
 
Mileage will vary. I think TPM for me was a confusing mess until I read the novel and felt I had more solid footing with what the story was to be. Similarly with ROTS and Grevious. So, for me, TPM was my first encounter with this where the central conflict didn't make sense until reading ancillary material. Like, even at 15 watching it in the theater I was left going, "Huh?"

Vs. TROS which I actually understood OK in the theater.
There's a difference between being able to pick up on certain plot points or not, which is indeed subjective, and it not being physically possible for anyone to do anything but guess because the information is simply not there, which is very much an objective problem.

It's the same basic rules that separate a well written mystery from poorly written one (actually it applies to most types of stories, but "mysteries" just make it easier to illustrate the point.) In a well written mystery the author plays fair with the audience and gives them all the information they need at the risk of a certain portion of them figuring out the twist ahead of time. There can still be misdirection, but again, the author must play fair and have it follow some internal logic.
A poorly written mystery does the opposite; the author withholds vital information from the audience leaving them guessing or confused, and will often heavily lean on misdirection, red herrings, and 11th hour reveals with no set-up, and just hope most of the audience thinks they were just too stupid to figure it out themselves. In reality it was probably the author that had that problem since most of the time, this approach is the way of hacks who are too lazy or too incompetent at storytelling to do the work needed to plot out the internal logic and present the information intelligently. It's all razzle dazzle and no substance.

In the case of TPM, whatever else one might say; all the information needed is right there. YMMV as to who does and does not pick up on the connections as you say, and that's fine. The same is not true of TRoS.

Sure, I can guess what's going on. I'm well versed enough in the lore to make up my own head canon about how the Sith Throne of Exogol works like the nightsisters' alter on Dathomir or Eternal Rur of the Ordu Aspectu; it traps a copy of the mind of the reigning Sith Lord upon death, so the next Master (that presumably killed them) can claim their knowledge and all of the predecessors for themselves, thus perpetuating the Legacy of Darth Bane. So Palpatine never came back; he really died over Endor and that thing was a copy bound to that place, unable to leave or regain any of it's old power. Left to it's own devises to go mad because there's no new Sith Lord to show up and claim the throne (because Anakin's final sacrifice actually meant something!) and the crazed cultists ended up following it because again, Vader never returned to them . . . but nothing of that or anything approaching it is in the movie, nor is it adequately set up in previous movies as such a massive plot point should have been.
What's worse, the follow through is even less coherent; a fleet of Star Destroyers that can destroy whole planets! But they need a guidance beacon to go "up"! And there's only one beacon at a time! Something, something kill the girl! Something, something, no don't kill the girl! It was all part of the plan, honest!

Leaving aside the creative bankruptcy and lack of imagination of going back to the "No, I am your (grand)father!" well; Taking a few loose threads from TFA like Rey's parents abandoning her and Snoke looking enigmatically weird, then jamming them together does not a coherent plot make. It skips far too many steps. There's a reason the movie goes for such a breakneck pace (and has both terrible editing and pacing as a result): They're trying to make sure the audience doesn't have enough time to think about what's going on. And if you don't want your audience to think, then it means you have much bigger problems.
 
In the case of TPM, whatever else one might say; all the information needed is right there.
It's there if you don't think about it and just accept it as "This conflict works because." So, yeah I see TPM as in the same line as TROS in terms of jamming things together and expecting me to just accept it. I don't.
 
It's there if you don't think about it and just accept it as "This conflict works because." So, yeah I see TPM as in the same line as TROS in terms of jamming things together and expecting me to just accept it. I don't.
What in TPM doesn't make objective sense? The Blockade? That's covered in the opening crawl. Sidious puppeteering the whole thing? That's literally spelled out in the title. The core conflict is capitalism and monopolies (i.e. greed) vs democracy and how the one erodes the other if left unabated. That's all over the movie. So what's left? The Chosen One thing? Believe it or not, that's not central to the plot, just a nested mystery of the larger saga.
 
What in TPM doesn't make objective sense? The Blockade? That's covered in the opening crawl. Sidious puppeteering the whole thing? That's literally spelled out in the title. The core conflict is capitalism and monopolies (i.e. greed) vs democracy and how the one erodes the other if left unabated. That's all over the movie. So what's left? The Chosen One thing? Believe it or not, that's not central to the plot, just a nested mystery of the larger saga.
I guess from a narrative point of view the crawl tells us the facts. The actual actions and reactions make no sense, but I guess from an objective standpoint the facts are all presented in a mashed up way. I don't care about the Chosen One thing. Just the actions and behaviors in the film make no sense, and the core conflict sounds great on paper. Watching the film I get none of that. Just people being bad because...
 
Say what you will about Lucas, at least he actually knew what the fuck he was doing.
The closest Lucas ever got to this territory was AotC and the whole Sifo-Dias/Tyranus thing, which was admittedly an unnecessary complication.
I was going to mention that but hadn’t gotten around to it. :D
Captain Kris Kringle Pike said:
Similarly with ROTS and Grevious.
Not sure what the issue is with Grievous. We don’t get any backstory about how or why he got ‘cyborged’ but the plot of the film doesn’t need it.
 
Not sure what the issue is with Grievous. We don’t get any backstory about how or why he got ‘cyborged’ but the plot of the film doesn’t need it.
I don't want backstory. I want to know why he is feared and known by our characters. It's one of those things that basically goes "We have history just don't ask anything about it because we don't have time for this." Probably one of those things that got lost int he 3 and a half hour edit or whatever of the film. In other words, Grievous is a plot device not a character and that bothers me from a structural point of view of a story.
 
I guess from a narrative point of view the crawl tells us the facts. The actual actions and reactions make no sense, but I guess from an objective standpoint the facts are all presented in a mashed up way. I don't care about the Chosen One thing. Just the actions and behaviors in the film make no sense, and the core conflict sounds great on paper. Watching the film I get none of that. Just people being bad because...
Who's actions, specifically?

Qui-Gon's? He's sent to mediate a dispute, they try to kill him, so he legs it down to the surface to warn the Queen. It's a big planet so he get's there late, so instead rescues her from Federation custody, and advises they all get out of dodge because the TF's actions make no logical sense, so there must be something else at play. Everything else is self-explanatory. Undercover shenanigans to get the parts they need to leave before Jabba's people get suspicious and turn them over for the bounty. Ran across a kid obviously gifted in the force, so take him along because he knows a heroes journey protagonist when he see's one. Back to the planet because "Sith Lord = bad news". Loose the duel of fates, pass burden to Padawan.

Obi-Wan? He really doesn't have much to do other than make quips and follow along with Qui-Gon. The only decision he makes is to take Anakin on, and that was literally Qui-Gon's dying request, so no surprise there.

So what about Amidala? She's a pacifist thrust into the position of a war leader. She witnesses first hand that the Republic Senate is broken and if her time on Tatooine taught her anything, is that help can come from the most unexpected places. So make peace with the Gungans, get them to help her expel the invaders. Roll credits!

Who else is there? Anakin? His only decision was to leave his mother and she had to practically pry him off her to make him go. Maul? He's an attack dog. Sidious? Wheels within wheels with that one. Get the Senate to increase trade route taxes to fill the coffers of greedy politicians at the expense of the commerce guilds, use their greed to convince them the way to get what they want is to force a trade deal on Naboo by force, use said invasion as a cover for his sympathy vote to ascend to the Chancellorship. Supposedly pacifist Queen buggered up the part where the Federation were supposed to get their treaty to keen them in his pocket. Oh well!
I want to know why he is feared and known by our characters.
He has a collection of lightsabers on his belt, and as established in TPM, there's only one way he got them. So it's fairly well implicit.
And "feared" is overstating matters a little. He's referred to as a coward and we straight up see him hiding behind droids, only attacking when he's sure he has an overwhelming advantage.
He's physically formidable. That's all he needs to be because he's not the villain of the movie, he's a henchman. An obstacle.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top