How would you change the show?

[Anwar]

Both shows had the same amount of main characters and same amount of episodes in those seasons. What is VOYAGER's excuse?

They didn't have a pre-built Setting with the politics already established, relations already established and a premise that allowed them to stay in one place long enough to build up anything that big.

Anytime Voyager stayed in one area long enough to try and flesh it out, they got complaints that they were staying in the area too long and it was too unbelievable that they kept interacting with the same aliens for more than 1 episode.

 

[fireproof78]

More like, the audience was ready to rip them to shreds before they did anything. Kind of hard to burn a bridge when the other side is already trying to chop it to pieces in the first place.

The writers did it to themselves.

 

[Anwar]

The writers did it to themselves.

If a person puts a gun to your head and says "If you breathe, blink or the your heart beats, I pull the trigger" and then you do that because...well, you can't stop your heart from beating, it's your fault?

Because that's what happened with the writers, no matter what they did that trigger was getting pulled.

 

[fireproof78]

If a person puts a gun to your head and says "If you breathe, blink or the your heart beats, I pull the trigger" and then you do that because...well, you can't stop your heart from beating, it's your fault?

Because that's what happened with the writers, no matter what they did that trigger was getting pulled.

Nonsensical extreme example is Nonsensical.

 

[Anwar]

Nonsensical extreme example is Nonsensical.

No, it's pretty truthful to the situation. No matter what VOY did it was going to be lambasted. I remember when it was first announced, the "fans" weren't happy. The crowd didn't turn ugly, the crowd showed up ugly. They couldn't burn bridges, the bridges had already been rigged to explode the second anyone tried walking on them.

That ANY of its episodes got a positive response (even just barely) is a minor miracle.

 

[Oddish]

Anytime Voyager stayed in one area long enough to try and flesh it out, they got complaints that they were staying in the area too long and it was too unbelievable that they kept interacting with the same aliens for more than 1 episode.

That would be a legitimate explanation for why there were no "outside" characters aside from Seska. But, it's totally the opposite for why there weren't more "inside" characters. Why was Voyager nine leads and a whole lotta nobodies?

The writers did it to themselves.

Sounds about right. Even if you excuse some things the writers did, such as abandoning premises in the show or relegating characters to the background... how do you overlook the dumb inconsistencies that could have been fixed with minimal dialogue?

 

[Anwar]

That would be a legitimate explanation for why there were no "outside" characters aside from Seska. But, it's totally the opposite for why there weren't more "inside" characters. Why was Voyager nine leads and a whole lotta nobodies?

Because the audience were already complaining that more wasn't done with the 9 leads as is. If they devoted screentime and stories to other recurring characters, then it becomes "Yeesh, you can't even handle your 9 leads right so now you waste time that should be on them with these other characters?! How incompetent are you all?!"

Sounds about right. Even if you excuse some things the writers did, such as abandoning premises in the show or relegating characters to the background... how do you overlook the dumb inconsistencies that could have been fixed with minimal dialogue?

Having someone say "Yeah, we were wrong about not being able to make more torpedoes. We actually can." wouldn't be enough. That's why.

Once you accept that you're stuck with people who have a "One Strike You're Out" mentality and that Strike One happened BEFORE the show even started, you're much better off. Because you realize you're already seen as a lost cause.

 

[fireproof78]

No, it's pretty truthful to the situation. No matter what VOY did it was going to be lambasted. I remember when it was first announced, the "fans" weren't happy. The crowd didn't turn ugly, the crowd showed up ugly. They couldn't burn bridges, the bridges had already been rigged to explode the second anyone tried walking on them.

That ANY of its episodes got a positive response (even just barely) is a minor miracle.

Ok, dude. I cleary didn't live through the extreme violence of Trek's mean streets...

Not like I watched Voyager when it first aired or anything. Or knew people who liked Voyager. Nope. All violence and smashing writers heads in....

What nonsense.

That would be a legitimate explanation for why there were no "outside" characters aside from Seska. But, it's totally the opposite for why there weren't more "inside" characters. Why was Voyager nine leads and a whole lotta nobodies?



Sounds about right. Even if you excuse some things the writers did, such as abandoning premises in the show or relegating characters to the background... how do you overlook the dumb inconsistencies that could have been fixed with minimal dialogue?

Exactly. The inconsistencies stood out.

 

[Anwar]

Ok, dude. I cleary didn't live through the extreme violence of Trek's mean streets...

Not like I watched Voyager when it first aired or anything. Or knew people who liked Voyager.

Well, I did. I saw people saying it was a stupid idea for a show, a female lead was stupid, she looked ugly, the ship was ugly, them not using old alien characters was a stupid idea, etc.

Exactly. The inconsistencies stood out.

And like I said, explanations given wouldn't change a darn thing. Fans would NOT stop and think "Oh, well they did write in some explanation so I guess they do care". I don't know what they'd do but they certainly wouldn't be grateful.

 

[at Quark's]

I suppose there are different type of fans. Some care about such inconsistencies, some don't.

I myself, don't really care too much about them, other than that it (possibly) shows sloppiness and carelessness of the writers. It's only entertainment, after all. Even though it can be fun to speculate how to resolve apparent inconsistencies between episode X and episode Y.

 

[Oddish]

Having someone say "Yeah, we were wrong about not being able to make more torpedoes. We actually can." wouldn't be enough. That's why.

And like I said, explanations given wouldn't change a darn thing. Fans would NOT stop and think "Oh, well they did write in some explanation so I guess they do care". I don't know what they'd do but they certainly wouldn't be grateful.

So... they think we don't care whether they insult our intelligence or not, so it's perfectly acceptable for them to insult our intelligence.

As opposed to, you know, spend a few seconds on an explanation. Briefly mention "Ensign Tuttle on the shuttle fabrication crew." Discuss a trade with the Delphonians, whose antimatter warhead technology should be compatible with Starfleet's, with a few reconfigurations. And as for the Harry problem, they don't even have to do that much, just stick another pip on his collar at the start of the fifth season. Since two months have passed, not one word of dialogue is needed.

 

[Farscape One]

Characters who had the pre-existing setup to build off of.



And those species were set up prior to DS9, meaning DS9 didn't have to make up characteristics or political scenarios from scratch.



And when they gave us recurring characters like Suder or Seska, how did that go?



Them signing that Treaty was their part of the Galactic War setup. And even during the War storyline we got stuff from Bajoran characters who still played their part.



Uh huh, and who maintained the DRDs? Where do they get their power?



More like, the audience was ready to rip them to shreds before they did anything. Kind of hard to burn a bridge when the other side is already trying to chop it to pieces in the first place.

Regarding preexisting characters on DS9... okay, O'Brien, Keiko, Gowron, and Worf. Compared to characters DS9 created: Sisko, Jake, Kira, Bashir, Quark, Odo, Jadzia, Ezri, Kai Opaka, Dukat, Nog, Rom, Garak, Zek, Winn, Bareil, Female Changeling, Eddington, Leeta, Brunt, Kasidy, Ishka, Martok, Ziyal, Weyoun, Ross, Vic Fontaine. DS9 had over 2 dozen more characters than what they borrowed from TNG.

Regarding species... Ferengi and Cardassians may have premiered on TNG, but they were VERY fleshed out in DS9. And DS9 created and fleshed out the Dominion, a very large political organization.

Regarding Suder and Seska, it was a mistake to get rid of them. Both were well cast and interesting characters.

Regarding the DRDs on Moya... it was Pilot. It's been explained that he guides them and overall maintains them.

 

[Dukhat]

They didn't have a pre-built Setting with the politics already established, relations already established and a premise that allowed them to stay in one place long enough to build up anything that big.

Anytime Voyager stayed in one area long enough to try and flesh it out, they got complaints that they were staying in the area too long and it was too unbelievable that they kept interacting with the same aliens for more than 1 episode.

And that is exactly how I would have 'changed the show.' I would have completely ditched the whole 'get back to Earth' trope (because the audience already knows that this will not happen until the end of the series) and focused on the crew trying to form their own mini-Federation with the aliens currently in the area of space they were brought to by the Caretaker. They would have stayed there and made a home for themselves rather than wander aimlessly through space on a magical ship that never runs out of power, weapons or shuttles, and instantaneously repairs itself at the start of every episode after having the shit beat out of it in the previous episode.

It would have been a brand-new canvas to paint on instead of the usual Federation/Klingons/Romulans/ trope from the other series.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, I did. I saw people saying it was a stupid idea for a show, a female lead was stupid, she looked ugly, the ship was ugly, them not using old alien characters was a stupid idea, etc.

Ok, but that's not the whole audience. That's your experience of it. Since I experienced it differently then the broad strokes "the audience would reject it" should be rejected out right as pure generalization since I did watch it when it aired, did have friends who watched it and enjoyed it, and I didn't like it because it failed to bear out the premise.

And like I said, explanations given wouldn't change a darn thing. Fans would NOT stop and think "Oh, well they did write in some explanation so I guess they do care". I don't know what they'd do but they certainly wouldn't be grateful.

Depends on the fans.

As opposed to, you know, spend a few seconds on an explanation. Briefly mention "Ensign Tuttle on the shuttle fabrication crew." Discuss a trade with the Delphonians, whose antimatter warhead technology should be compatible with Starfleet's, with a few reconfigurations. And as for the Harry problem, they don't even have to do that much, just stick another pip on his collar at the start of the fifth season. Since two months have passed, not one word of dialogue is needed.

Yup. Rewatching shows of the time, like Farscape and Stargate, explanations were given all the time. So, it's clear that any effort is welcome so long as it's consistent in the world. Ignoring just assumes the audience is ignorant. Which is not a great place to start.

 

[Farscape One]

Because the audience were already complaining that more wasn't done with the 9 leads as is. If they devoted screentime and stories to other recurring characters, then it becomes "Yeesh, you can't even handle your 9 leads right so now you waste time that should be on them with these other characters?! How incompetent are you all?!"



Having someone say "Yeah, we were wrong about not being able to make more torpedoes. We actually can." wouldn't be enough. That's why.

Once you accept that you're stuck with people who have a "One Strike You're Out" mentality and that Strike One happened BEFORE the show even started, you're much better off. Because you realize you're already seen as a lost cause.

And yet, VOYAGER got a 7 year run... the last show in the franchise (to date) to do so. Clearly, enough people were watching to stay on, so the general audience wasn't a 'one strike and you're out' mentality.

I like the show a lot. They did a bunch of things right. It's just that some of the things they missed on were glaring and prevented it from being an even better show.

 

[EnsignRoCallie]

In no particular order:

• Keep Seska on the ship as a recurring character

Yes, Seska is one of the most exciting characters, she shouldn't have been removed. She could have stayed on board all along, even with a radical character change.

 

[Oddish]

Yes, Seska is one of the most exciting characters, she shouldn't have been removed. She could have stayed on board all along, even with a radical character change.

The way I would have envisioned Seska's story unfolding is that she winds up stuck on Voyager... she's confined to quarters for a long time, until Janeway needs someone with her skill set (misdirection, espionage, general spy stuff). Then, she's allowed her freedom, but not entirely trusted. Once "Pathfinder" drops, Seska finds out that one, Cardassia has had the snot kicked out of it, and two, the Federation has begun a massive relief effort to Cardassia. With the Federation and Cardassia now fully at peace, Seska takes a more cooperative role on the ship.

 

[Oddish]

I did this in a similar TNG forum, so I'll do it here as well. If I could delete one episode from canon per season, these are the ones I would choose...

Season 1: Parallax. Janeway rewarding a violent misfit with a promotion doesn't sit well with me... but worse, B'Elanna's tendency to assault her colleagues just goes away after this episode. If they weren't going to do something cool with her violent Klingon temper, why have it?

Season 2: Threshold. While it's not that bad without the whole "salamander babies" thing, that did happen. So get rid of it.

S2 Dishonorable Mention: Non Sequitur. Harry wakes up in San Francisco next to his gorgeous fiancee, and finds he's just rocking it at the SCE. No more cold showers, no more eternal ensignhood, no more dying repeatedly, no more stuck on a tin can 70,000 LY from home... and he spends the whole episode trying to get back.

Season 3: Real Life. Not because it's overly bad, but because of the stupid notion that the EMH goes through the misery of losing Belle so that he can "understand the family experience"... and then we never see them again. I know Voyager danced on the Big Red Reset Button... it did not work well here.

Season 4: Mortal Coil. Seems to us like I'm deleting TNG episodes because they're bad, but killing VOY ones because they disrupt canon. In this one, the Borg ability to bring back dead people is a game changer that will never show up again.

Season 5: The Disease. Why is Harry the only person in all of Star Trek who gets reprimanded for a little romance?

Season 6: Fury. Kes was too good a character to be crapped on in such a way.

Season 7: Nightingale. When the audience complained about a given character not getting a promotion, the writers doubled down on it, slapped them across the face, and then assassinated the character for at least the third time.

Dishonorable Mention: Endgame. The "dark alternate reality that never happened" was done better in both "Year of Hell" and "Timeless".

 

[Anwar]

So... they think we don't care whether they insult our intelligence or not, so it's perfectly acceptable for them to insult our intelligence

More like "Either we waste time giving an explanation and they hate the explanation, or we do nothing and they hate us for that. Either way, they hate us."

As opposed to, you know, spend a few seconds on an explanation. Briefly mention "Ensign Tuttle on the shuttle fabrication crew." Discuss a trade with the Delphonians, whose antimatter warhead technology should be compatible with Starfleet's, with a few reconfigurations.

"The ship can make more stuff?! Nothing in TOS or TNG or DS9 suggests that! Their tech is compatible with aliens? We should see an entire episode about them finding that out!"

Regarding preexisting characters on DS9... okay, O'Brien, Keiko, Gowron, and Worf. Compared to characters DS9 created: Sisko, Jake, Kira, Bashir, Quark, Odo, Jadzia, Ezri, Kai Opaka, Dukat, Nog, Rom, Garak, Zek, Winn, Bareil, Female Changeling, Eddington, Leeta, Brunt, Kasidy, Ishka, Martok, Ziyal, Weyoun, Ross, Vic Fontaine. DS9 had over 2 dozen more characters than what they borrowed from TNG.

And they had recurring planets to come from, a stratified Quadrant already built up to use and a big Galactic War to spread the characters out so they weren't all in the same place. All things VOY didn't have access to.

And DS9 created and fleshed out the Dominion, a very large political organization.

By having them show up for 5 seasons. Whereas anytime VOY had their villains show up for more than ONE EPISODE they got complaints.

Regarding Suder and Seska, it was a mistake to get rid of them. Both were well cast and interesting characters.

Sure, NOW the audience can say that but that wasn't the reality back then.

Regarding the DRDs on Moya... it was Pilot. It's been explained that he guides them and overall maintains them.

And where does he get the materials to do so, the energy?

And that is exactly how I would have 'changed the show.' I would have completely ditched the whole 'get back to Earth' trope (because the audience already knows that this will not happen until the end of the series) and focused on the crew trying to form their own mini-Federation with the aliens currently in the area of space they were brought to by the Caretaker. They would have stayed there and made a home for themselves rather than wander aimlessly through space on a magical ship that never runs out of power, weapons or shuttles, and instantaneously repairs itself at the start of every episode after having the shit beat out of it in the previous episode.

It would have been a brand-new canvas to paint on instead of the usual Federation/Klingons/Romulans/ trope from the other series.

I agree.

Clearly, enough people were watching to stay on, so the general audience wasn't a 'one strike and you're out' mentality.

Whenever the show tried to do anything big and epic they sure had that mentality. Scorpion and Year of Hell and The Void being good examples.

 

[Oddish]

@Anwar Clearly, you're perfectly happy with random, unexplained changes in the premise of the show. I'm not, and cannot be convinced otherwise. Let's agree to disagree.