What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[Tupperfan]

I don't know. If I thought something wasn't good I wouldn't watch it unless it was being riffed MST3K-style by people taking the piss out of the badness. But that's just me.

I can deal with "meh" and occasionally terrible but anything consistently bad I avoid.

Who is saying I don't avoid bad/mediocre Trek? The problem is that you need to watch an episode/show and assess it as bad first in order to then avoid it. I stopped watching Discovery around midway through season 4. I'm pretty close on Picard but will give season 3 a chance. I gave up on LD after season 1 and revising old Trek has been getting less and less appealing, for the most part.

So, yeah, even what are considered the worst seasons of Star Trek aren't what I'd call "mostly bad". So I can't agree with the idea that there's more Bad Trek than Good Trek.

Now, if you want to say there are more bad Terminator movies than good Terminator movies, I'm with you 100%.

Well, even mostly mediocre is not what I'd call an appealing proposition. But my point remains: I love the idea and the world of Star Trek, and there are bits - beside nostalgia - that I genuinely enjoy still, but the execution has generally left me increasingly unsatisfied.

As for Terminator: Sure. But that's not controversial. It tends to happen with most major franchises over time (cough Star cough Wars).

 

[fireproof78]

Well, even mostly mediocre is not what I'd call an appealing proposition. But my point remains: I love the idea and the world of Star Trek, and there are bits - beside nostalgia - that I genuinely enjoy still, but the execution has generally left me increasingly unsatisfied.

I guess that makes me wonder what creates that satisfaction?

 

[Tupperfan]

I guess that makes me wonder what creates that satisfaction?

That's a good question. It's hard to pinpoint exactly by now, but let's just say it's been diminishing returns. Maybe it's just a thing I've mostly outgrown, for one reason or another, but it's why I feel a bit on my way out of the Trek fandom these days.

I usually enjoy great stories that are consistent with the characters and the universe they are set in. Even fiction needs to somewhat make sense (for lack of a better word). These satisfying stories can be high-concept sci-fi as much as character-based or world-building-centered. These reasons are probably why I love For All Mankind so much these days, and also why have had such a hard time with Picard, especially in season 2. The fact that every time-period (especially between the 23rd and 25th centuries) seems relatively similar design-wise and has turned the whole Trek universe in some form of formless mud (with the usual Trek tropes peppered in) doesn't help.

On top of that, I used to feel like the scope of Star Trek stories was immense. But more recently - especially in shows like Discovery and Picard - it has felt, for me, like a small neighbourhood that has to somewhat always face galactic threats. That issue has actually been present for much of Trek's history, but it has been getting a bit ridiculous and harder to ignore these days (especially in Discovery, where a 1,000 years old antiquity and its out-of-time crew saves the galaxy every season). It has resulted in an impossibility to suspend disbelief and enjoy the stories as much.

 

[ananta]

There are more hours of bad Trek than good Trek.

Oh my goodness?

The quality does vary depending on the series and even with the series themselves. I’m not a huge fan of Voyager or Enterprise and have mixed feelings on Lower Decks and Picard. But, even then…I think most Star Trek episodes have at least some elements in them, whether story, character or production that make them at least somewhat enjoyable and worth watching even if they don’t rank as great. I say this as someone who has just finished rewatching TOS season three, and for the most part still enjoyed it. Really bad or unwatchable episodes of Trek certainly exist but are surprisingly uncommon. Usually even the mediocre ones contain something of interest.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Hey I love Star Trek but a lot of it is... not amazing. People seem to go into each new show expecting a genre-defining masterpiece when Trek never was. It established a genre of space adventuring. It's a lot of fun and has mostly likeable characters and has nice little messages sometimes. But it started life by watching Forbidden Planet and saying, what if it was a TV series?

 

[Qonundrum]

TOS season 3 used to be the pit of the pits for me, then I sat through TNG seasons 5 and 6. TNG 5&6's best stories (YMMV*) blow away any TOS3, above average ones are on par or better by comparison, but the average or bad ones from 5&6 are bad by comparison; even season 7 felt like a legitimate step upward. Not just because TN&6 had a larger budget than TOS (noting that TNG5&6 also felt cheaper compared to 3&4.) Since then, DS9s7 and VOYs1 teeter along the lines as well and I generally gravitate back toward the TOS3 episodes that don't stink.

* I will always defend "Plato's Stepchildren" and can't stand the shallowness of "The Empath", can tolerate "The Way to Eden" more than many, and depending on day I'll go either way for "Requiem for Methuselah" which just goes to show the wide ranging of personal tastes across the human race. Which reminds me, I need to re-watch "Soylent Green" this weekend...

 

[fireproof78]

That's a good question. It's hard to pinpoint exactly by now, but let's just say it's been diminishing returns. Maybe it's just a thing I've mostly outgrown, for one reason or another, but it's why I feel a bit on my way out of the Trek fandom these days.

This is another place where I will part ways. While I think TV shows are a great way in to a fandom, I feel like just watching shows makes for poor fan experience, so if the show doesn't appeal to me that doesn't automatically mean I'm out of fandom. My interest in much of current Trek output has diminished since Discovery first aired, but that doesn't alter my interest in Trek in general. From boards like this, Reddit, action figures, models, RPGs, books, costuming, fan fiction, etc. I feel that there is more to grab on to in Trek than just the shows.

So, while I can agree with feeling a bit of the diminishing returns piece, I don't feel like stepping outside of the fandom for any real reason. I still love TOS, and rewatch it and the Kelvin movies in some fashion once a year. I still enjoy costuming, fan art (appreciating, not making, sadly) and even action figures. I feel like there is room for all kinds of fan, even ones who don't like the TV shows.

On top of that, I used to feel like the scope of Star Trek stories was immense. But more recently - especially in shows like Discovery and Picard - it has felt, for me, like a small neighbourhood that has to somewhat always face galactic threats. That issue has actually been present for much of Trek's history, but it has been getting a bit ridiculous and harder to ignore these days (especially in Discovery, where a 1,000 years old antiquity and its out-of-time crew saves the galaxy every season). It has resulted in an impossibility to suspend disbelief and enjoy the stories as much.

That I can understand, though my current efforts in reading, researching and creating my own fiction lead me to realize that suspension of disbelief goes hand and hand with Trek. It takes a lot of salt for me to get through some episodes, especially in TNG or VOY.

I get it. The line is different for everyone, but, well, stories require my suspension of disbelief already.

Hey I love Star Trek but a lot of it is... not amazing. People seem to go into each new show expecting a genre-defining masterpiece when Trek never was. It established a genre of space adventuring. It's a lot of fun and has mostly likeable characters and has nice little messages sometimes. But it started life by watching Forbidden Planet and saying, what if it was a TV series?

That's more my experience now. I go in looking for characters I enjoy and adventure stories. I don't expect the genre defining, ground breaking, intense masterpieces that a lot seemed to expect from Trek. I mean, I still have my top favorite Treks, but I would not say they are this earth-shattering masterpiece more important to me on a personal level. It's OK for Star Trek to not be ground breaking and still be enjoyable.

 

[Vger23]

Season 3 of TOS is not NEARLY as bad as many other seasons of Star Trek.

It gets picked on a lot because it was the last season of TOS and was marred by a decline in quality from the previous 2 seasons…but there are multiple seasons from every other Trek series that under perform far beneath it.

Just for starters, I’d consider S6 and 7 of TNG, S1 S2 and S7 of DS9, all of VOY and ENT, S3 and 4 of DSC, all of PIC, and all of LD to be less entertaining than Star Trek’s original third season.

I’d say S1 and 2 of TNG are about on-par.

It’s far from the weakest collection of Trek episodes produced.

 

[Tupperfan]

Oh my goodness?

The quality does vary depending on the series and even with the series themselves. I’m not a huge fan of Voyager or Enterprise and have mixed feelings on Lower Decks and Picard. But, even then…I think most Star Trek episodes have at least some elements in them, whether story, character or production that make them at least somewhat enjoyable and worth watching even if they don’t rank as great. I say this as someone who has just finished rewatching TOS season three, and for the most part kind of enjoyed it. Really bad or unwatchable episodes of Trek certainly exist but are surprisingly uncommon. Usually even the mediocre ones contain something of interest.

Well, again, I guess I was right in thinking that my opinion was controversial, but I remain surprised and amused at how so many people here seem (relatively) offended and can't comprehend that someone could say what I did. Star Trek is definitely a sacred cow in this neck of the woods.

But it remains only my opinion and my perception, the same way it's yours to believe that unwatchable episodes are "surprisingly uncommon" (and that's genuinely great for you). From my perspective, sadly, those are getting increasingly more common, and they now include episodes I was previously able to enjoy. Sure, there are great bits in bad stuff, but I don't have the desire to dredge through 45 minutes of mediocrity I've seen numerous times before to enjoy a good/fun moment anymore. I guess I'd rather try finding some new good content than going back to old mediocre material, despite the fact that it used to bring me confort.

And trust me, saying all this, and coming to the realization that I might have terminal Trek fatigue brings me no joy, and hasn't fully settled in. That's probably the reason why I have moved to these boards in anticipation of the closure of the previous forum I frequented, but it's also the reason why I have posted less and less and this move might be the final nail in my Trek boards coffin.

 

[Vger23]

That's a good question. It's hard to pinpoint exactly by now, but let's just say it's been diminishing returns. Maybe it's just a thing I've mostly outgrown, for one reason or another, but it's why I feel a bit on my way out of the Trek fandom these days.

Genuinely honest question here: if you’re outgrowing the franchise and moving on, why create an account on a top Trek discussion board and begin to engage on related topics? That doesn’t seem consistent.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, again, I guess I was right in thinking that my opinion was controversial, but I remain surprised and amused at how so many people here seem (relatively) offended and can't comprehend that someone could say what I did. Star Trek is definitely a sacred cow in this neck of the woods.

No, it's sacred everywhere I talk Trek. Daring to question the status quo of Trek opinions brings a lot of emotions out. And it makes sense to a certain degree. Many Trek fans comes to Trek at a young age and that fan experience becomes a part of their identity. So much so that questioning it feels like questioning their very being. It takes a level of introspection that can be uncomfortable to separate the hobbies from what makes us us.

Genuinely honest question here: if you’re outgrowing the franchise and moving on, why create an account on a top Trek discussion board and begin to engage on related topics? That doesn’t seem consistent.

They answer that in a recently posted post:

And trust me, saying all this, and coming to the realization that I might have terminal Trek fatigue brings me no joy, and hasn't fully settled in. That's probably the reason why I have moved to these boards in anticipation of the closure of the previous forum I frequented, but it's also the reason why I have posted less and less and this move might be the final nail in my Trek boards coffin.

 

[Vger23]

Well, again, I guess I was right in thinking that my opinion was controversial, but I remain surprised and amused at how so many people here seem (relatively) offended and can't comprehend that someone could say what I did. Star Trek is definitely a sacred cow in this neck of the woods.

Well shit man, it’s a Star Trek message board populated by pretty hardcore fans. I think it’s kind of odd that you expected something else.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Trek has lots of mediocre, but (IMHO) the only season which is more than 50% bad is TOS Season 3.

There more seasons of Trek than this with more bad episodes than good ones though, like TNG Seasons 1 and 7, ENT Season 1, DIS Season 1, and PIC Season 2. But overall I tend to think even most "bad" Trek seasons are really just mediocre.

These things are always subjective. Even "bad" Star Trek was always better than the majority of the shite available out there.

 

[Vger23]

These things are always subjective. Even "bad" Star Trek was always better than the majority of the shite available out there.

When I think of episodes or movies as “bad,” I generally consider them to be without any re-watch value and pretty poorly written/acted/produced. Stuff that’s basically irredeemable. I can count on two hands the number of Star Trek episodes and movies I’d truly classify as “bad” by that definition.

I think people hold Star Trek to a relative standard of excellence and it tips the scale of reality away from what is ACTUALLY “bad.” I mean, no matter how poor a Trek episode or movie is, it will never be “Basic Instinct 2”, “AvP Requiem” or “Gigli.” Trek is still, even in its weakest productions, still preferable to 60-70% of what else is available to watch.

 

[cooleddie74]

Even "The Way to Eden" has redeeming qualities, can be fun to watch and is more entertaining than a lot of big-budget sci-fi TV episodes or films produced since 1969. Bad is relative and in Trek terrible is relatively rare.

 

[Vger23]

Even "The Way to Eden" has redeeming qualities, can be fun to watch and is more entertaining than a lot of big-budget sci-fi TV episodes or films produced since 1969. Bad is relative and in Trek terrible is relatively rare.

There are really only two TOS episodes I consider “bad” by my definition, and those are “Mudd’s Women” and “Plato’s Stepchildren”. And even “Plato” has redeeming qualities that make me want to reconsider that opinion.

 

[fireproof78]

Even "The Way to Eden" has redeeming qualities, can be fun to watch and is more entertaining than a lot of big-budget sci-fi TV episodes or films produced since 1969. Bad is relative and in Trek terrible is relatively rare.

It's all relative.

And, honestly, "Way to Eden" might be a bit off the rails, but it provides some very interesting world building with Spock and the Federation.

 

[cooleddie74]

And for me the true nadir of TOS is "And the Children Shall Lead." And even it has creepy visual f/x and the Gorgan chant is catchy. Terrible Trek leaves an impression and can generate happy memories.

 

[cooleddie74]

It's all relative.

And, honestly, "Way to Eden" might be a bit off the rails, but it provides some very interesting world building with Spock and the Federation.

And gives Chekov some of his little backstory in the series.

 

[Tupperfan]

This is another place where I will part ways. While I think TV shows are a great way in to a fandom, I feel like just watching shows makes for poor fan experience, so if the show doesn't appeal to me that doesn't automatically mean I'm out of fandom. My interest in much of current Trek output has diminished since Discovery first aired, but that doesn't alter my interest in Trek in general. From boards like this, Reddit, action figures, models, RPGs, books, costuming, fan fiction, etc. I feel that there is more to grab on to in Trek than just the shows.

Actually, I might have not expressed myself well on this as I fully agree with you here: I still enjoy the Trek fandom. I love my star charts, my ship models and the Sisko and Spock figures I have in my home office. I introduced my girlfriend to the universe and she enjoyed it greatly (although, aside from SNW, she has stopped watching the new offerings extremely quickly). We went to a wonderful Bruce Horak multidisciplinary performance after discovering him on SNW. A few years ago, travelling to Trek shooting locations in California and Nevada has made our trip in the US Southwest much more fun.

So, I still have a strong attachment to Trek (As a French-Canadian, it was my original gateway to learning and speaking English) and I enjoy its lore immensely. I agree that not enjoying some shows or episodes doesn't diminish that aspect in any way, but I will also admit that I might not need to share that attachment outwards as much as I needed to when I first looked for others like me (and made real-life friends) in places such as the late 90s Trekweb, hence why I feel like I'm somewhat moving away from the fandom (to a degree). My current experience here tends to confirm that feeling, but I'll give it a bit more time (and I'll try other threads).

Hey I love Star Trek but a lot of it is... not amazing. People seem to go into each new show expecting a genre-defining masterpiece when Trek never was. It established a genre of space adventuring. It's a lot of fun and has mostly likeable characters and has nice little messages sometimes. But it started life by watching Forbidden Planet and saying, what if it was a TV series?

That's more my experience now. I go in looking for characters I enjoy and adventure stories. I don't expect the genre defining, ground breaking, intense masterpieces that a lot seemed to expect from Trek. I mean, I still have my top favorite Treks, but I would not say they are this earth-shattering masterpiece more important to me on a personal level. It's OK for Star Trek to not be ground breaking and still be enjoyable.

I fully agree with both these assessments and it's the way I try to approach Trek.

Genuinely honest question here: if you’re outgrowing the franchise and moving on, why create an account on a top Trek discussion board and begin to engage on related topics? That doesn’t seem consistent.

That's a totally fair question, but as stated before, I'm not quite ready to call it quits (and it also doesn't mean I will), so that's actually quite consistent with where I'm currently standing. But yeah, you might be right: Given the warm welcome, maybe this place won't help me re-kindle the Trek fire either.

Well shit man, it’s a Star Trek message board populated by pretty hardcore fans. I think it’s kind of odd that you expected something else.

Well, I've frequented other "top Trek discussion boards" and my experience over these last 25 years has been a lot of reasonable and enjoyable discussions - aside from the rare Scorned-type dude - with a lot of hardcore fans (I even made real life friends out of a few) I sometimes/often disagreed with. I guess I found pretty decent spots to discuss Trek and my relationship with it in the last few decades, as I've rarely seen people getting all worked up when broaching such subjects, even if they disagreed completely (see Captain Kris Kringle Pike's comments above for what I generally expected).

So yeah, consider me somewhat surprised by the reaction, even among hardcore fans, and especially in a thread titled "What are your controversial Star Trek opinions"! After so many years discussing with strangers on the internet, I guess I should have known better but don't worry, my expectations have been adjusted.

In any case, it certainly doesn't make me dismissable as not a True Trek Fan, nor does it make my opinion particularly offensive, even if you don't agree with it. But hey, feel free to give it very little importance: It's definitely not world-changing and shouldn't affect your appreciation of Trek.