Spoilers Willow sequel series on Disney+

[Vasquez Rocks]

I think a lot of people today think just because something is dark and gritty it automatically means it's higher quality. I've grown tired of gloomy tv shows. I know it works both ways that just because somethings light doesn't mean quality either, but I do get the vibe that people aren't as willing to give a lighter show as much of a chance than a darker one. Some shows too, take a few episodes before it's footing is found. I guess it's just up to the viewer with how much they're willing to give something a chance.

Admittedly I found the first episode of Willow to be weaker than the second. Those first 15 minutes were a little rough but then it settled into more of what I like about the movie. Not having Warwick for the majority of it hurt a little but I get that they were trying to establish the group of new characters. I loved Joanne Whalley in the pilot. She held things together until Willow could arrive.

 

[Christopher]

I think a lot of people today think just because something is dark and gritty it automatically means it's higher quality.

Yeah, that's what I find so odd. It was true back in the '80s and '90s that going exceptionally dark and gritty was a daring and innovative thing that characterized prestige shows like, say, Hill Street Blues or HBO's programming (and comics like Watchmen or The Dark Knight Returns), but it stopped being innovative decades ago, longer than much of the current target audience has even been alive. It's just conventional now, even expected. So it makes no sense anymore to equate it with innovation or quality. It's strange to me that the society is so stuck in the assumptions of a previous (i.e. my own) generation, rather than going through the kind of cyclical change I would've expected.

I mean, like, why do superhero shows and movies keep doing dark and cynical "deconstructions" of superheroes when a whole generation has grown up with nothing but dark and cynical superhero stories? It's not a deconstruction if it's just more of the usual. By this point, the deconstruction would be poking holes in the cynicism and reaffirming an optimistic take on superheroes (e.g. in the Superman story "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way?").

And I suppose the same would go for fantasy. A show that just copied the grim brutality of Game of Thrones would merely be derivative and lazy. The fresher thing to do would be to reject that grimness and regain the sense of wonder in a fantasy world.

Come to think of it, isn't that basically what Star Wars did? Cinematic science fiction in the 1970s tended to be bleak, dystopian, or coldly intellectual, so even though Star Wars was just a derivative throwback to the children's movies and serials of an earlier era, it revolutionized sci-fi film by making it fun and exciting, even if critics at the time thought that came at the expense of its intelligence. Willow didn't make the same kind of splash, but maybe that has something to do with the fact that it didn't contrast quite so strongly with preceding fantasy films like, say (off the top of my head), Legend, Dragonslayer, Labyrinth, or The Neverending Story.

I've grown tired of gloomy tv shows. I know it works both ways that just because somethings light doesn't mean quality either, but I do get the vibe that people aren't as willing to give a lighter show as much of a chance than a darker one.

Maybe there was a time when I felt that way, but these days, I'd rather watch something fun and uplifting than something self-consciously, relentlessly grim and hopeless. I mean, fun shows have room in them to go dark and intense. Joss Whedon's shows always struck a good balance of humor and darkness, as did something like Veronica Mars, say. Japanese tokusatsu and anime shows tend to be good at embracing extremes in both directions, pivoting from utter goofiness to wrenching tragedy and back again. What makes it work is the balance. The darker parts have more meaning when they're contrasted with the light, and vice versa.

Admittedly I found the first episode of Willow to be weaker than the second. Those first 15 minutes were a little rough but then it settled into more of what I like about the movie. Not having Warwick for the majority of it hurt a little but I get that they were trying to establish the group of new characters. I loved Joanne Whalley in the pilot. She held things together until Willow could arrive.

It's kind of the opposite of the movie's structure. Aside from the opening sequence with the midwife rescuing Elora, the film starts with Willow and the Nelwyns, sticks with them, and reveals the larger world through their eyes. Okay, that's probably just because it was copying how The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings did it, but it was nice that it treated Willow's world as the baseline and let us see the human/Daikini world through the Nelwyn's eyes as this mysterious, exotic land of giants. The series went about it the other way, starting us off with the human point of view and treating the Nelwyns as the outsiders, which is a lot more conventional. Although the second episode does a better job balancing the Daikini and Nelwyn viewpoints.

 

[FPAlpha]

Whereas I welcome something that takes a light tone, rather than being self-consciously Dark and Gritty like so much else insists on being these days. I'm currently slogging my way through Titans season 3, and it's a classic example of the mistake of confusing darkness for quality. It's wallowing in relentless, gratuitous darkness under the belief that somehow makes it adult and sophisticated, but it's really dumb and badly written.

The weird thing is that the trend of dark, serious TV being more sophisticated began more than 30 years ago. You'd think by now, people would've caught on that it's not edgy and innovative anymore to go dark, just formulaic and cliched. If anything, it's the lighter, more optimistic stuff that's the fresh change of pace.

I think a lot of people today think just because something is dark and gritty it automatically means it's higher quality. I've grown tired of gloomy tv shows. I know it works both ways that just because somethings light doesn't mean quality either, but I do get the vibe that people aren't as willing to give a lighter show as much of a chance than a darker one. Some shows too, take a few episodes before it's footing is found. I guess it's just up to the viewer with how much they're willing to give something a chance.

Admittedly I found the first episode of Willow to be weaker than the second. Those first 15 minutes were a little rough but then it settled into more of what I like about the movie. Not having Warwick for the majority of it hurt a little but I get that they were trying to establish the group of new characters. I loved Joanne Whalley in the pilot. She held things together until Willow could arrive.

It doesn't have to be dark in general but in my experience darker, or rather more adult, themes tend to bring out better acting and possibly also better actors because there tends to be more "meat" to it. May be lynched for this here but Warwick Davis was really bad here acting wise and this is a big part why Willow isn't working for me. Most of the other actors also aren't that hot in the acting department either and apart from a few scenes here and there there was not much going for the show at this moment.

It's really bad that Kilmer had to basically quit acting due to his throat cancer, i always believed he was quite a good actor when given good material so i really miss him in this.

 

[Christopher]

It doesn't have to be dark in general but in my experience darker, or rather more adult, themes tend to bring out better acting and possibly also better actors because there tends to be more "meat" to it.

And I disagree with the assumption that darkness equals adultness. Rather, it's a teenager's view of adulthood, that you have to put aside childish things and make a big show of how serious and grown-up you are now. We don't truly grow up until we stop feeling we have to prove how mature and serious we are and remember that it's okay to have fun.

I mean, who says themes of love and kindness and hope can't be adult? The most adult thing in the world is parenting, and parents should be loving and giving and supportive to their children. Also, emotional maturity should entail being able to cope with emotions and relationships in a healthy and positive way, instead of wallowing in angst and conflict and negativity.

I've often found that "adult" is too often equated with violence and profanity, and too many writers focus so much on those elements that they fail to put any real intelligence or complexity into the stories or characterizations. I've seen plenty of children's shows that are more mature and sophisticated in the ways that count than a lot of so-called "adult" shows, because they focus on real substance rather than superficial markers of adulthood like gore or skin.

If anything, the idea that violence and profanity are exclusive to adults and outside of children's experience has it backward. Children are often obsessed with violence and death, pretending to kill each other in their playground games, and often see the world as a very dark and scary place, because so much of it is beyond their understanding and dictated by forces beyond their control. I know that I had a higher tolerance for gunplay and gory movies when I was younger than I do as an adult. And kids cuss like sailors when their parents aren't listening.

May be lynched for this here but Warwick Davis was really bad here acting wise and this is a big part why Willow isn't working for me.

I wouldn't say Davis was bad, but his acting hasn't improved as much in 34 years as I'd hoped it would. In rewatching the movie, I found that the young Davis's acting reminded me a lot of Mark Hamill in the original Star Wars. And Hamill has improved immensely as an actor since then. Davis, not so much. Still, I found him adequate, if not brilliant.

Now, his daughter Annabelle did a terrific job as Mims, I thought. I hope we haven't seen the last of her.

 

[FPAlpha]

And I disagree with the assumption that darkness equals adultness. Rather, it's a teenager's view of adulthood, that you have to put aside childish things and make a big show of how serious and grown-up you are now. We don't truly grow up until we stop feeling we have to prove how mature and serious we are and remember that it's okay to have fun.

I mean, who says themes of love and kindness and hope can't be adult? The most adult thing in the world is parenting, and parents should be loving and giving and supportive to their children. Also, emotional maturity should entail being able to cope with emotions and relationships in a healthy and positive way, instead of wallowing in angst and conflict and negativity.

I've often found that "adult" is too often equated with violence and profanity, and too many writers focus so much on those elements that they fail to put any real intelligence or complexity into the stories or characterizations. I've seen plenty of children's shows that are more mature and sophisticated in the ways that count than a lot of so-called "adult" shows, because they focus on real substance rather than superficial markers of adulthood like gore or skin.

If anything, the idea that violence and profanity are exclusive to adults and outside of children's experience has it backward. Children are often obsessed with violence and death, pretending to kill each other in their playground games, and often see the world as a very dark and scary place, because so much of it is beyond their understanding and dictated by forces beyond their control. I know that I had a higher tolerance for gunplay and gory movies when I was younger than I do as an adult. And kids cuss like sailors when their parents aren't listening.




I wouldn't say Davis was bad, but his acting hasn't improved as much in 34 years as I'd hoped it would. In rewatching the movie, I found that the young Davis's acting reminded me a lot of Mark Hamill in the original Star Wars. And Hamill has improved immensely as an actor since then. Davis, not so much. Still, I found him adequate, if not brilliant.

Now, his daughter Annabelle did a terrific job as Mims, I thought. I hope we haven't seen the last of her.

I'm not saying that adult must equal violence, far from it. I consider the early to mid Pixar movies light but also mixed in with adult themes that only adults will truly get as opposed to children, who don't have the life experience yet, and this makes them fantastic movies.

Or if one looks to the Sitcom world, e.g. the Cosby Show ( yeah i know but we can still talk about it?). It was a light comedy show but every so often they mixed in some important stuff about racial issues, personal responsibility and general life issues. I get that the movie was light fantasy adventure entertainment and the show is just following in its footsteps but i feel the show is too light and either the script or the actors can't sell what the show is trying to achieve.

 

[Vasquez Rocks]

Davis really shines in his 1 season show Life's Too Short. He's hilarious in this series and shows he has great comedic chops.

Regarding Willow I liked the earnestness he brought to the character. The new show he has to be more of a leader and teacher and Davis I think brings that. The fact that he is extremely likeable as a person helps in that performance.

 

[Christopher]

Regarding Willow I liked the earnestness he brought to the character. The new show he has to be more of a leader and teacher and Davis I think brings that. The fact that he is extremely likeable as a person helps in that performance.

I do think he's pretty good at playing Willow's exasperation with Elora. The chemistry between the two works pretty well.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Willow's position is an interesting one.
Since his presumed win over Bavmorda and returning a hero to his village, he has been elevated to leader due to his reputation and the closest thing to a wizard the village had.
Since then he has constantly been fed with reverence and hero worshipping by his people. Not that he isn't a good leader for his people, but his ego has also grown quite a bit.
He got used to the respect and immediately got angry and made stupid rash decisions when he visited the daikiris and they take him down a peg (pun intendended).
Now, with this new adventure I he gets a second chance to discover if he can do his own legend justice or not.
Pretty sure, there will be a humbling situation or two.
Of course, his first success will be discovered in the next episode when they find the magical plant Elora conjured after his tutoring.

 

[Christopher]

Since his presumed win over Bavmorda and returning a hero to his village, he has been elevated to leader due to his reputation and the closest thing to a wizard the village had.

Rather, Willow is the High Aldwin. The leader of the village in the movie was Burglekutt, the prefect of the council, while the Aldwin was more the spiritual leader -- more a Merlin than an Arthur, so to speak. I would presume that in the wake of his journey, Willow got the Aldwin apprenticeship he'd sought, studied under High Aldwin Junn (as Billy Barty's character was named in an RPG sourcebook), and eventually replaced him once he passed on.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Rather, Willow is the High Aldwin. The leader of the village in the movie was Burglekutt, the prefect of the council, while the Aldwin was more the spiritual leader -- more a Merlin than an Arthur, so to speak. I would presume that in the wake of his journey, Willow got the Aldwin apprenticeship he'd sought, studied under High Aldwin Junn (as Billy Barty's character was named in an RPG sourcebook), and eventually replaced him once he passed on.

Yeah, but we didn't see a successor to Burglekutt. Everyone looked just towoard Willow. As far as I know there is no reason they Nelwyn's couldn'T give the jobs to the same person.
In the movie the High Aldwin seemed to overrule Burglekutt's decisions for the most part anyway, and where he couldn't he manipulated him to get what he wanted.

 

[Christopher]

Yeah, but we didn't see a successor to Burglekutt. Everyone looked just towoard Willow.

Because the visitors came specifically in search of Willow. Also because they were dealing with the return of Elora Danan, which is a matter of prophecy and magic and is therefore Aldwin business. If it were a matter of organizing the harvest, commissioning a new building, or resolving a property dispute between neighbors, they'd turn to the prefect.

Also, Willow's the one who has the most experience dealing with Daikini, so he's probably seen as sort of the ambassador to the outside world.

In the movie the High Aldwin seemed to overrule Burglekutt's decisions for the most part anyway, and where he couldn't he manipulated him to get what he wanted.

Sure, but that's akin to a politician basing their decisions on what their astrologer tells them. Burglekutt didn't seem to be formally required to obey the Aldwin -- it seemed more like he was just superstitious and bought into the Aldwin's bogus divination. As you say, the Aldwin manipulated Burglekutt -- which is something he wouldn't have to do if he could just give him orders. He had to make it look like the requirement came from a higher power than his own.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

Well, Episode 3 took a bit of a darker turn.
Not sure if this will be the low point of our not so merry anymore band of adventurers.
Willow exhausted his magic to save the day, but as the titular character he cannot quite Obi Wan himself yet.
In any case it falls to Elora to step up now.

The two trappers Elora runs into felt a little out of place in the fantasy setting. I kept expecting them to start gun slinging.

"Go, shiv someone." XD

 

[Christopher]

This was a good one, though yes, it did get pretty dark. As soon as Hubert and Anne declared their willingness to stand with Elora and give their lives if necessary, I had a sinking feeling that they were doomed, and it happened almost immediately. Kind of a "bury your gays" moment there, although that's ameliorated by Kit and Jade being surviving lead characters. And with a name like Hubert, I wonder if the character was scripted to be male. Maybe they figured an axe-wielding woodsman having a mute female companion and praising Elora's perfect young skin would be kind of creepy. Anyway, Hannah Waddingham did a great job with an all too short-lived character. (She was also Jax-Ur in Krypton, though I didn't recognize her until I looked up her credits.)

I'm also not crazy about Silas being killed off and leaving Willow as the only Nelwyn main character. Having another Little Person around made Davis feel like less of a token. Also, if they were going to do this beat about him dying happy that he'd protected his best friend, I wish he'd been Meegosh from the movie, instead of a fill-in character who seemed to be sort of an amalgam of Meegosh and Vohnkar.

I liked the way they dealt with the infected soldiers, with the protagonists wanting to save them rather than just kill the bad guys. They weren't able to save them, but at least they tried to, and the soldiers were treated more as victims than monsters.

Nice that they used animatronics for the were-rats, in the spirit of the original film's creature effects, although I'm sure the huge swarm of them was CGI. And Bavmorda's castle at the end was surely a CGI reconstruction as well. The original was a mix of a miniature and a matte painting in the wide shots, and a partial full-scale facade on location.

 

[JD]

Yeah, this was definitely the darkest episode yet, but I still enjoyed it.
I'm disappointed they killed off Hubert and got rid of Anne so quick, I really liked them, they were fun.
I was a little surprised they killed Ballantine and his soldiers too, I figured they were going to keep them around as the more immediate threat, while the Glades and The Crone were the bigger more distant threat.
I'm curious what Boorman is up to with key to the cuirass.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I'm still not crazy about the modern snark and other touches thrown in everywhere. Haha, no one cares about your stinky lore, BORE MAN...I like it in some things but I just don't care for it in this show. The Enter Sandman cover was kind of cool but again it just seems really out of place in Willow. Metallica seems to be everywhere lately, Stranger Things, Wednesday, Willow, my teenage mind would've exploded.

 

[Christopher]

I'm still not crazy about the modern snark and other touches thrown in everywhere.

I don't think it's inconsistent with the original film, which had a fairly light tone. Willow and Madmartigan were plenty snarky toward each other.

As for rock songs in fantasy, I find it incongruous when it's the main score (it really undermined Ladyhawke for me), but it doesn't bother me here, since it's reserved for the end credits (and the last few moments before them). Mind you, I couldn't tell Metallica from, uhh, Wooddica.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

It's more in the presentation, Willow and Madmartigan didn't feel anachronistic to me. Whereas this show often has moments that are, "Could someone just concisely recap everything I missed?".

 

[Christopher]

It's more in the presentation, Willow and Madmartigan didn't feel anachronistic to me. Whereas this show often has moments that are, "Could someone just concisely recap everything I missed?".

What does "anachronistic" even mean in an imaginary fantasy world, though? I mean, Boorman said here that the cuirass was forged 10,000 years before. In our world, the Bronze Age began only about 5,000 years ago, the Iron Age about 3,000. So that makes their civilization something like two or three times as old as ours (assuming the date wasn't another of Boorman's exaggerations). I don't see how you could even compare their rate of cultural or linguistic progress to ours.

Given that, I'd find it pretentious if a fantasy show tried to have its characters talk like they came from the Elizabethan Era or something, since they didn't. If it's an imaginary world, then just let the characters' speech be contemporary. Presumably whatever language they speak is being translated for our benefit anyway.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

So you'd be OK with Willow saying "Yo homey, let me get a toke of that kush?" It's all fantasy so why not, right?

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

@Christopher
Absolutely true, from the aging of the baby she took care of her for a few months atleast, getting food, avoiding soldiers, etc. Real hero.

Most surnames usually come from say a location, like a village, mike of detroit, or son/daughter of like Steve son of Bob. Or profession like Todd the Smith.

What's Tanthalos? Place?

Or from a more vague location. My surname Bradley comes from "broad lea" (ie: the green fields of Northumbria). They started using "De Broadalegh" around 1078, it morphed into "Broadley" around 1450 and eventually just Bradley.

I just watched episode 1. Good stuff so far, but I'm surprised they did "the reveal" so early. Looking forward to eps 2 and 3 in the next couple days.