What ships SHOULD they have used in the Dominion War?

[Arpy]

Get by? And yet here we are still decades later talking about shortcomings of those fleet shots. And post no-lesson-learned cut and paste fleet on PIC, which they then scrambled to fix in S2 with ugly video game tie-in ships. They should have gotten more creative with how they showed the battles back then, used fewer but more accurate ships to suggest bigger fleets. And included shield bubbles too.

The Ambassador is the biggest omission. Could have done one shot with it in the foreground and another in the back with Sabers, Akiras, Steamrunners, Excelsiors, and a Galaxy. Prometheuses, Intrepids, Defiants, and even a Sovereign in the distant background only fans would recognize. Another shot could have been of an Olympic Class and a bunch of Sydney Classes in the back of the fleet. Maybe near Ross’s Galaxy or just the back tip of a Sovereign nacelle — again, fans would know what ship he’s on, casual viewers would have to check out the TNG movies to see it.

 

[Dukhat]

Get by? And yet here we are still decades later talking about shortcomings of those fleet shots.

I didn't say that I liked it. I said that that's all they needed to pad out their fleet.

And post no-lesson-learned cut and paste fleet on PIC, which they then scrambled to fix in S2 with ugly video game tie-in ships. They should have gotten more creative with how they showed the battles back then, used fewer but more accurate ships to suggest bigger fleets. And included shield bubbles too.

I'm probably in the minority, but I never had a problem with the cut-and-paste fleet. It actually makes sense to me that by the 25th century Starfleet would have consolidated their technology into one single trusted design. But the STO ships in season 2 annoyed me a bit. Not because they used them for time constraints, but that they chose designs that made very little sense to me and would not have been the ships I would have chosen.

The Ambassador is the biggest omission. Could have done one shot with it in the foreground and another in the back with Sabers, Akiras, Steamrunners, Excelsiors, and a Galaxy.

They didn't have the physical model available to scan into a CGI model. And they didn't have time to create a new one. That's why we didn't see any.

Prometheuses, Intrepids, Defiants, and even a Sovereign in the distant background only fans would recognize.

They didn't want to use the Sovereign and Intrepid because they thought the audience would think they were the Enterprise-E and Voyager. They didn't want more than one Defiant because that was the hero ship. And for whatever reason why the Prometheus didn't show up, at least they used it in 'Endgame.'

Another shot could have been of an Olympic Class and a bunch of Sydney Classes in the back of the fleet. Maybe near Ross’s Galaxy or just the back tip of a Sovereign nacelle — again, fans would know what ship he’s on, casual viewers would have to check out the TNG movies to see it.

The Olympic class model belonged to Bill George, not the studio. If it was in George's possession, they wouldn't have been able to scan it. And the Sydney class was just a transport ship, not really necessary as a warship.

 

[Arpy]

It actually makes sense to me that by the 25th century Starfleet would have consolidated their technology into one single trusted design.

Why then? Why not a hundred years earlier? There is no consolidating the technology because different ships do different things.

They didn't have the physical model available to scan into a CGI model. And they didn't have time to create a new one. That's why we didn't see any.

They could have found it and scanned it? Or shot it the same way they shot every other ship before that point. It was a stylistic choice to shoot ships tightly packed like that, and it left a lot to be desired.

They didn't want to use the Sovereign and Intrepid because they thought the audience would think they were the Enterprise-E and Voyager. They didn't want more than one Defiant because that was the hero ship. And for whatever reason why the Prometheus didn't show up, at least they used it in 'Endgame.'

Again, that’s why they’d be in the distant background. Also, that reasoning is moronic, like Berman’s ‘there are too many shows on,’ ‘there are no more stories to tell in the Star Trek universe.’ If casual fans see 6 Defiant Class starships in a battle scene, are they going to think they’re all commanded by Benjamin Sisko?

The Olympic class model belonged to Bill George, not the studio. If it was in George's possession, they wouldn't have been able to scan it. And the Sydney class was just a transport ship, not really necessary as a warship.

The Sydneys would be at the back of the fleet as troop transports. They’re not going to engage in battle but hang out with other support craft and maybe Ross’s command ship, a Sovereign or Galaxy. They could have asked George for the ship, but they weren’t thinking verisimilitude, what does each ship class do and where to position them. They just grabbed a bunch of available models and slapped them together to wow the natives. Color me unwowed. If the whole thing were off screen but more sensical, I’d have been more impressed.

 

[Dukhat]

Why then? Why not a hundred years earlier? There is no consolidating the technology because different ships do different things.


They could have found it and scanned it? Or shot it the same way they shot every other ship before that point. It was a stylistic choice to shoot ships tightly packed like that, and it left a lot to be desired.


Again, that’s why they’d be in the distant background. Also, that reasoning is moronic, like Berman’s ‘there are too many shows on,’ ‘there are no more stories to tell in the Star Trek universe.’ If casual fans see 6 Defiant Class starships in a battle scene, are they going to think they’re all commanded by Benjamin Sisko?


The Sydneys would be at the back of the fleet as troop transports. They’re not going to engage in battle but hang out with other support craft and maybe Ross’s command ship, a Sovereign or Galaxy. They could have asked George for the ship, but they weren’t thinking verisimilitude, what does each ship class do and where to position them. They just grabbed a bunch of available models and slapped them together to wow the natives. Color me unwowed. If the whole thing were off screen but more sensical, I’d have been more impressed.

What you’re not taking into account is both the idiotic thought processes these people had, and the utter lack of time and budget to produce these visual effects. For example, they readily had Jein’s model available to scan; they didn’t have the Ambassador readily available. To them, a ship is a ship, and they were on a schedule. They didn’t care enough to spend time rooting through crates to find a more logical model to scan because they weren’t thinking logically; they were thinking monetarily. Time is money, and they felt they had enough with what was readily available to pad out that fleet.

Another example of their idiocy where the audience was concerned: the Breen destroyed Starfleet HQ in DS9, but it was shown completely intact later in VOY. Why? Because the producers didn’t think the VOY audience were also watching DS9 and thought they would be confused as to why HQ had been attacked, as if that mattered as a plot point to their story.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Another example of their idiocy where the audience was concerned: the Breen destroyed Starfleet HQ in DS9, but it was shown completely intact later in VOY. Why? Because the producers didn’t think the VOY audience were also watching DS9 and thought they would be confused as to why HQ had been attacked, as if that mattered as a plot point to their story.

Well, it was at least months or even as much as a year later, so IDK that it's that unlikely that at least parts of the facility would have been rebuilt by then?

 

[Dukhat]

Well, it was at least months or even as much as a year later, so IDK that it's that unlikely that at least parts of the facility would have been rebuilt by then?

Doubtful that it would have been rebuilt to look like such an exact copy of how it looked pre-attack that there would have been zero indication that it was attacked at all.

 

[David cgc]

I feel like the "scanning" terminology is almost certainly a misnomer. I work with brand new 3D scanned data all the time (heck, half the people on this forum probably have a phone that can make 3D scans), and even now, those models are lumpy, discolored, and generally unsuitable for any kind of visual effects work. Scans like that can be used for reference, but given that the DS9/VGR-era models do tend to have inaccuracies and proportional issues compared to the miniatures (never mind their clean, hand-modeled geometry), even though interviews referred to creating a CG model of an existing starship as "scanning," I doubt that they required, or even necessarily had, physical access to any given legacy ship that appeared in CG in the '90s show.

 

[137th Gebirg]

What ships should have been used in the Dominion War? Only one (maybe two). Find the Founders' home world, collect a couple of asteroids and/or comets along the way and...



Done and done. Credit to John Payne.

Too MU?

 

[Leathco]

I feel like the "scanning" terminology is almost certainly a misnomer. I work with brand new 3D scanned data all the time (heck, half the people on this forum probably have a phone that can make 3D scans), and even now, those models are lumpy, discolored, and generally unsuitable for any kind of visual effects work. Scans like that can be used for reference, but given that the DS9/VGR-era models do tend to have inaccuracies and proportional issues compared to the miniatures (never mind their clean, hand-modeled geometry), even though interviews referred to creating a CG model of an existing starship as "scanning," I doubt that they required, or even necessarily had, physical access to any given legacy ship that appeared in CG in the '90s show.

Thing is, there are tons of user created 3D ship models that already exist. I've even 3D printed some of them. Tons of fan made videos on YouTube that show off user made models. If they don't have time to make their own, why not reach out to the fanbase and offer them a bit of cash for their model, and their name in the credits? Most fans would jump on this chance in a heartbeat. I get they sort of did this when they used the STO ships in PIC S2, but some direct fan participation would have been awesome to see.

 

[David cgc]

Thing is, there are tons of user created 3D ship models that already exist. I've even 3D printed some of them. Tons of fan made videos on YouTube that show off user made models. If they don't have time to make their own, why not reach out to the fanbase and offer them a bit of cash for their model, and their name in the credits? Most fans would jump on this chance in a heartbeat. I get they sort of did this when they used the STO ships in PIC S2, but some direct fan participation would have been awesome to see.

The legalities can be complicated (unless you're working on a Star Wars product, which were particularly notorious for pilfering fan-art, at least in years past), plus, we're talking about the '90s, when DS9 was being made and the quality of fan CG was much, much lower, mostly because of how much harder it was to get reference material.

Nowadays, I am thrilled to see the shows drawing on the STO and Eaglemoss digital model libraries.

 

[DEWLine]

What ships should have been used in the Dominion War? Only one (maybe two). Find the Founders' home world, collect a couple of asteroids and/or comets along the way and...

View attachment 31366

Done and done. Credit to John Payne.

Too MU?

Very much akin to Terran Empire or Confederation of Earth methods in my eyes, that. And the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar already tried something like it...

 

[fireproof78]

Thing is, there are tons of user created 3D ship models that already exist. I've even 3D printed some of them. Tons of fan made videos on YouTube that show off user made models. If they don't have time to make their own, why not reach out to the fanbase and offer them a bit of cash for their model, and their name in the credits? Most fans would jump on this chance in a heartbeat. I get they sort of did this when they used the STO ships in PIC S2, but some direct fan participation would have been awesome to see.

Legalities and use is complicated. In addition, it doesn't always please the larger industry art houses who prefer their companies get the work, rather than random people not affiliated with the industry. In the end, I imagine that the powers that be have deemed it not worth the money and trouble for a brief cameo.

Why then? Why not a hundred years earlier?

Probably because Starfleet was in a unique position post Dominion War, post Mars attack, to consolidate their fleet design and operations.

Yeah, it's about time, but I prefer the singular ship to the ragtag look of some other fleet shots.

 

[Arpy]

Probably because Starfleet was in a unique position post Dominion War, post Mars attack, to consolidate their fleet design and operations.

There is no consolidating the fleet. Different ships do different things for different reasons. You don’t build a fleet exclusively of aircraft carriers.

Also, Starfleet has been in the same position time and again throughout its existence facing threats in between times of peace sometimes on the level of the Borg or V’Ger or others vastly superior), and this far inferior post-supernova Romulan threat is just that.

Finally, there is no Starfleet. This is a TV show, and we all know what cut corners look like. By their own admissions we know why they didn’t do a proper fleet at the end of Season 1 and that they made a point not to do the same in Season 2.

 

[fireproof78]

Finally, there is no Starfleet. This is a TV show, and we all know what cut corners look like. By their own admissions we know why they didn’t do a proper fleet at the end of Season 1 and that they made a point not to do the same in Season 2.

More's the pity.

There is no consolidating the fleet. Different ships do different things for different reasons. You don’t build a fleet exclusively of aircraft carriers.

You also don't need a 100 different classes or variants for a particular job. Starfleet is excessive in it's class designations. Something like 4 or 5 would be fine.

And the consolidation of the type of ship in Picard Season 1 made perfect sense in response to that specific threat. Give me more of that logic rather than, "We have to have mixed fleet." No you don't.

 

[Arpy]

More's the pity.

And the grace.

You also don't need a 100 different classes or variants for a particular job. Starfleet is excessive in it's class designations. Something like 4 or 5 would be fine.

Not if they're all identical save for nacelle lights.

And the consolidation of the type of ship in Picard Season 1 made perfect sense in response to that specific threat. Give me more of that logic rather than, "We have to have mixed fleet." No you don't.

Again, fleets are not made up of 200 of the most powerful battleships in the history of the Federation. That's fantasyland.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

You also don't need a 100 different classes or variants for a particular job. Starfleet is excessive in it's class designations. Something like 4 or 5 would be fine.

I think ≤ 12 (A Dozen) for each major Division.
Within each major category/division, you really only need ≤ 12 different class types of vessels per division
At most, you'd need probably 15/16, but that's a extreme outlier and would rarely be encountered throughout history.

StarFleet itself really only needs ≤ 12 different classes to makeup a full combat ready doctrine to cover nearly all likely past/present/future contingencies / scenarios.
StarFleet Logistics would have ≤ 12 different class of vessels.
StarBases / Orbital Platforms would need ≤ 12 different classes of facilities to solve everything.
A Coast Guard like division would need ≤ 12 different class of vessels.
Same with any vessels designed for Marines/Army/Soldier/Ground Force deployments, they'd only need ≤ 12 different classes of vessels.

All you have to do is look at IRL history and any major military power at any given time / era.

Did anybody have more than 15/16 classes in service at any given time?
The vast Majority, for one type of Division would have ≤ 12 different types of vessels.

Again, fleets are not made up of 200 of the most powerful battleships in the history of the Federation. That's fantasyland.

It was still "1-3 Types of vessel of the same class with minor changes/differentiation".
Having 200 StarShips (Not necessarilly Battleships) isn't unprecedented for a small expeditionary task force.

 

[Arpy]

Except they were battleships. Per Riker the most powerful starships in Starfleet’s history. All in a single armada with no support craft at the command of a retired starship captain on reserve. It was a childish scene that they attempted to redress at the start of the following season.

 

[fireproof78]

Again, fleets are not made up of 200 of the most powerful battleships in the history of the Federation. That's fantasyland.

For that particular instance I would say it is 100% appropriate. Not that I would expect all fleets to be like that. Just that it made sense in context.

I think ≤ 12 (A Dozen) for each major Division.
Within each major category/division, you really only need ≤ 12 different class types of vessels per division
At most, you'd need probably 15/16, but that's a extreme outlier and would rarely be encountered throughout history.

I tend to agree, though I still err on the more conservative side with 6-12 ships, depending on the division. And largely, in Trek history, fleets have been made up of some singular ships (TOS, DS9) and some mixed ships (TNG, DS9). Both are completely acceptable to me because we have seen demonstrated throughout Trek history that one single type of ship can be used in multiple roles. There is nothing precluding Starfleet from using a singular frame but reformat it to different roles because the tech inside is what makes the difference, not the shape of the ship.

In my opinion. No doubt anathema to ship lovers everywhere.

 

[Unicron]

For my part, I've tended to be satisfied with the build ratios I've seen in many offscreen works, although I admit I consider myself being a "big fleet" person in terms of Starfleet being willing to build 50-100 cruisers or destroyers if the designs work well enough. Generally ships like the destroyers, cruisers and frigates tend to have higher build ratios (let's say 30-60 ships in a given class, optimally) in a lot of tech manuals while more specialized designs like scouts and transport/tugs get moderate builds. Frigate is kind of a weird case in that term having evolved a bit from how older works like FASA would have treated it. I admit, I kind of like the older concept being sort of a mission cross between a cruiser and a destroyer, able to perform exploration functions but also having the firepower to act as a tactical support as well.

Fully tactical vessels, like dreadnoughts and the Defiant class, do exist as part of the fleet but the build rates are much smaller because they are specialized warships, and the emphasis on more peaceful missions tends to limit the need for such vessels even in eras when tensions with neighboring powers like the Kiingons are high. I've always found it silly to presume that Starfleet could spend the bulk of its existence dealing with such potential threats and never employ a dedicated warship. But I also tend to think that a single dreadnought could, say, operate in place of several destroyers and achieve similar results. Generally most tactical vessels in fan works I've seen, such as Jackill's, don't go much above 20 vessels in a class max (and even that's often a highball estimate given their role). The Excelsior would be kind of the odd duck in this case, if one wanted to keep the FASA designation as a battleship and not a heavy cruiser as other sources have suggested.

I also think the sheer vastness of space, even with Trek levels of technology, is a factor as well. You'd need a lot of ships and infrastructure to continue exploring and building, even assuming that you could do most of that without any neighbor conflicts. And I don't generally see a problem with a successful design staying operable for 50-100 years or even longer, if it functions well and can be upgraded routinely. The TNG Tech Manual suggests the Galaxy class has a 100-year design expectancy. We already have modern day designs that can last 50+ years, and some of those have stayed in active service for close to a century even fi their operational production period was much smaller (the B-52 being my favorite example - it was only built for a decade but current planes have gone multiples of that in service).

Someone suggested that one reason the Klingons seem to keep so many older vessels around is that they would be considered battle records of a sort, and I think that's a good suggestion with their culture. The Star League of the Battletech franchise developed a "rotational" system of sharing technology, such that the most elite League units (the Royal regiments) got all the best stuff first and then gradually replaced it with newer technology, and then the older stuff was open to the member states. This way the members were able to share the majority of the technological advancements the League was able to create, while the core state of the Terran Hegemony was also able to maintain a good control of how that rotation worked. They didn't generally have to worry about a member state suddenly becoming too powerful.

 

[Arpy]

I imagine Starfleet to be huge. If there are (conservatively) a trillion people in the Federation, and .5% of them are in Starfleet, that’s 5 Billion people. Thousands of planets, moons, asteroids, and space habitats. Maybe hundreds of thousands or millions of civilian ships.