How would you change the show?

[Oddish]

And Gowron. Also the Cardassians were already set up in TNG, as well as the Ferengi.

As said before, don't confuse species with characters. The Klingons and Romulans were TOS holdovers, used by TNG, but no one has issue with that.

Maybe, but it's still something that would be better off with Romulans as the 2nd crew.

Agreed, but they probably didn't want to do make-up for a bunch of extras. Hence Voyager's ridiculously high proportion of humans.

No one on the writing staff believed they'd be trapped away from home forever, so they didn't care to write the characters that way either.

One of Voyager's longest running inconsistencies... at least some characters should have married, had kids, and basically acted like they were going to be out there awhile.

Too little, too late.

Well what do you want me to do about it? Travel back in time and start grabbing random viewers by the throat and shouting, "HOW DARE YOU NOT LIKE 'VOYAGER'?!"

Sure, they could do that...if the main cast was smaller so that they didn't feel like they were screwing the main cast out of spotlight.

DS9 found a pretty decent balance, and it was juggling 20 or 25 characters by the end.

 

[Farscape One]

As said before, don't confuse species with characters. The Klingons and Romulans were TOS holdovers, used by TNG, but no one has issue with that.



Agreed, but they probably didn't want to do make-up for a bunch of extras. Hence Voyager's ridiculously high proportion of humans.



One of Voyager's longest running inconsistencies... at least some characters should have married, had kids, and basically acted like they were going to be out there awhile.



Well what do you want me to do about it? Travel back in time and start grabbing random viewers by the throat and shouting, "HOW DARE YOU NOT LIKE 'VOYAGER'?!"



DS9 found a pretty decent balance, and it was juggling 20 or 25 characters by the end.

Bingo on all accounts, especially the last one.

VOYAGER's list of recurring characters in season 7...

1. Icheb
2. Naomi Wildman
3. Carey (though forgotten about since season 1's "STATE OF FLUX", since his only other appearances were episodes where the plot took place in season 1, like "RELATIVITY" and "FURY")
4. Vorik (I'll throw you a bone with him, because he appeared as much in season three as the rest of the series combined.)
5. Barclay
6. Q


DS9's list of recurring characters in season 7...

1. Vic Fontaine
2. Martok
3. Nog
4. Garak
5. Rom
6. Leeta
7. Kasidy Yates
8. Weyoun
9. Female Changeling
10. Damar
11. Kor
12. Dukat
13. Zek
14. Kai Winn
15. Gowron
16. Sloan
17. Keiko
18. Ishka
19. Maihar'du
20. Senator Cretak

And DS9 fleshed out all these people along with their 9 leads.

Both shows had the same amount of main characters and same amount of episodes in those seasons. What is VOYAGER's excuse?

 

[Oddish]

And many of the DS9 characters had major roles, especially toward the end of the series. Comparatively, Q appeared three times, Carey was MIA for six years until he was redshirted, and Vorik... what Farscape said. Over on DS9, Dukat, Garak, Weyoun, Kasidy, Nog, Martok, and others had compelling multi-episode stories of their own.

 

[Dee1891]

And many of the DS9 characters had major roles, especially toward the end of the series. Comparatively, Q appeared three times, Carey was MIA for six years until he was redshirted, and Vorik... what Farscape said. Over on DS9, Dukat, Garak, Weyoun, Kasidy, Nog, Martok, and others had compelling multi-episode stories of their own.

So what?

 

[Farscape One]

The point being there could, and should, have been many more recurring characters on VOYAGER. The premise was ripe for it. Instead, truly only two recurring were there, and at 1/3 of the leads got shortended in growth and development. (I will, however, say that Tuvok should have changed the least regardless, given he is almost a century old. People tend to be set in their ways by their 40s... imagine someone who can live 2 centuries.)

 

[DigificWriter]

The point being there could, and should, have been many more recurring characters on VOYAGER.

Procedurals don't have massive casts of recurring characters, so the guest characters we got were fine.

 

[Oddish]

I will, however, say that Tuvok should have changed the least regardless, given he is almost a century old.

And Harry and Kes should have transformed majorly. One out of three ain't great.

Procedurals don't have massive casts of recurring characters, so the guest characters we got were fine.

That's fine. While most of the people posting in this topic disagree, you have the right to your opinion.

 

[DigificWriter]

I haven't actually answered the central question of the thread, so I'm going to do so now.

The only thing that I would change about the show is the order in which it was broadcast, which should have been as follows:
Season 1 (20 episodes)

1. Caretaker, Part 1
2. Caretaker, Part 2
3. Parallax
4. Time and Again
5. Phage
6. The Cloud
7. Eye of the Needle
8. Ex Post Facto
9. Emanations
10. Prime Factors
11. State of Flux
12. Heroes and Demons
13. Cathexis
14. Faces
15. Jetrel
16. Learning Curve
17. Projections
18. Elogium
19. Twisted
20. The 37s

Season 2 (22 episodes)

1. Initiations
2. Non Sequitur
3. Partuition
4. Persistence of Vision
5. Tattoo
6. Cold Fire
7. Maneuvers
8. Resistance
9. Prototype
10. Death Wish
11. Alliances
12. Threshold
13. Meld
14. Dreadnought
15. Lifesigns
16. Investigations
17. Deadlock
18. Innocence
19. The Thaw
20. Tuvix
21. Resolutions
22. Basics, Part 1

Season 3 (26 episodes)

1. Basics, Part 2
2. Sacred Ground
3. False Profits
4. Flashback
5. The Chute
6. Remember
7. The Swarm
8. Future's End, Part 1
9. Future's End, Part 2
10. Warlord
11. The Q and the Grey
12. Macrocosm
13. Fair Trade
14. Alter Ego
15. Blood Fever
16. Coda
17. Unity
18. Rise
19. Darkling
20. Favorite Son
21. Before and After
22. Real Life
23. Distant Origin
24. Displaced
25. Worst Case Scenario
26. Scorpion, Part 1

Season 4 (26 episodes)

1. Scorpion, Part 2
2. The Gift
3. Nemesis
4. Day of Honor
5. Revulsion
6. The Raven
7. Scientific Method
8. Year of Hell, Part 1
9. Year of Hell, Part 2
10. Random Thoughts
11. Concerning Flight
12. Mortal Coil
13. Waking Moments
14. Message in a Bottle
15. Hunters
16. Prey
17. Retrospect
18. The Killing Game, Part 1
19. The Killing Game, Part 2
20. Vis a Vis
21. The Omega Directive
22. Unforgettable
23. Living Witness
24. Demon
25. One
26. Hope and Fear

Season 5 (26 episodes)

1. Night
2. Drone
3. Extreme Risk
4. In the Flesh
5. Once Upon a Time
6. Nothing Human
7. Timeless
8. Thirty Days
9. Infinite Regress
10. Counterpoint
11. Gravity
12. Latent Image
13. Bride of Chaotica!
14. The Flight
15. Bliss
16. The Disease
17. Course: Oblivion
18. Dark Frontier, Part 1
19. Dark Frontier, Part 2
20. Think Tank
21. Juggernaut
22. Someone to Watch Over Me
23. 11:59
24. Relativity
25. Warhead
26. Equinox, Part 1

Season 6 (26 episodes)

1. Equinox, Part 2
2. Survival Instinct
3. Barge of the Dead
4. Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy
5. Dragon's Teeth
6. Alice
7. Riddles
8. One Small Step
9. The Voyager Conspiracy
10. Pathfinder
11. Fair Haven
12. Tsunkatse
13. Blink of an Eye
14. Virtuoso
15. Collective
16. Memorial
17. Spirit Folk
18. Ashes to Ashes
19. Child's Play
20. Good Shepherd
21. Fury
22. Live Fast and Prosper
23. Life Line
24. Muse
25. The Haunting of Deck Twelve
26. Unimatrix Zero, Part 1

Season 7 (26 episodes)

1. Unimatrix Zero, Part 2
2. Drive
3. Critical Care
4. Repression
5. Imperfection
6. Inside Man
7. Body and Soul
8. Nightingale
9. Flesh and Blood, Part 1
10. Flesh and Blood. Part 2
11. Shattered
12. Lineage
13. Repentance
14. Prophecy
15. The Void
16. Workforce, Part 1
17. Workforce, Part 2
18. Human Error
19. Q2
20. Author, Author
21. Friendship One
22. Natural Law
23. Homestead
24. Renaissance Man
25. Endgame, Part 1
26. Endgame, Part 2

 

[fireproof78]

The point being there could, and should, have been many more recurring characters on VOYAGER. The premise was ripe for it. Instead, truly only two recurring were there, and at 1/3 of the leads got shortended in growth and development. (I will, however, say that Tuvok should have changed the least regardless, given he is almost a century old. People tend to be set in their ways by their 40s... imagine someone who can live 2 centuries.)

Indeed. The biggest aspect of Voyager is that it was slow to change the characters. Yes, changes occurred but it was limited to the main cast. Well, with the idea of setting up the long run survival aspect the secondary characters can be utilized to flesh out the scenario, rather than relying only on the main cast. Allowing characters to come, to go, and to change is something that makes the biggest different to fleshing out the premise.

 

[Farscape One]

I agree about that. (I'm also happy you put them in pretty much production order.)

UPN holding over those 4 episodes in season 1 hurt the show more than helped it, and repeating that for season 2 just compounded the problem. Because of this, we were robbed of getting 4 more episodes of the show. (Though given the mediocre quality of mid season 3, this might have been a blessing.)

 

[DigificWriter]

I agree about that. (I'm also happy you put them in pretty muxh production order.)

UPN holding over those 4 episodes in season 1 hurt the show more than helped it, and repeating that for season 2 just compounded the problem. Because of this, we were robbed of getting 4 more episodes of the show. (Though given the mediocre quality of mid season 3, this might have been a blessing.)

Reordering the seasons the way that I have both maximizes and emphasizes the series' blending of the episodic and the serialized and also highlights what character development and evolution does exist within it.

It does create a discrepancy or two with regards to stardates, but flows better, I think, overall.

 

[Farscape One]

I will say this about the Berman era... except for TNG season 1, the episodes were produced pretty much in the order of the stardate given in the episode. This becomes clear for those four season 2 holdovers: "SACRED GROUND", "FALSE PROFITS", "FLASHBACK", and "BASICS, PART II". The stardates given in those reflect them being a season 3 episode... UPN probably gave them the heads up that it was happening again, so wrote the stardates in accordingly.

Episodes with no stardate in them could be shuffled in whatever order UPN wanted, which is why VOYAGER had so many without them, or just had 'supplemental' said instead of the actual date.

 

[Oddish]

• Initiations

• Non Sequitur

• Partuition

• Persistence of Vision

• Tattoo

• Cold Fire

• Maneuvers

• Resistance

• Prototype

• Death Wish

• Alliances

• Threshold

• Meld

• Dreadnought

• Lifesigns

• Investigations

• Deadlock

• Innocence

• The Thaw

• Tuvix

• Resolutions

• Basics, Part 1

How about...
10. Death Wish
11. Alliances
12. A frickin' RERUN
13. Meld
14. Dreadnought

 

[Farscape One]

Honestly, "THRESHOLD" was pretty damn good until the end when The Doctor explained what happened to Paris.

The rest of the episode had some great body horror, creepy scenes, and good character stuff for Tom.

The end does bring the rest down a bit, but take that out of equation, it's a solid episode.

VOYAGER has far better examples (and in later seasons, no less) of bad episodes.

 

[DigificWriter]

I really don't understand the outsized hatred for Threshold espoused by people who otherwise identify themselves as fans of Voyager, and personally find it to be a fun, crazy Sci-Fi adventure that pairs up characters who wouldn't normally be paired together and that ends with a neat little 'trapdoor'.

 

[Farscape One]

I really don't understand the outsized hatred for Threshold espoused by people who otherwise identify themselves as fans of Voyager, and personally find it to be a fun, crazy Sci-Fi adventure that pairs up characters who wouldn't normally be paired together and that ends with a neat little 'trapdoor'.

I don't agree on some points with you about VOYAGER, but on this one we are of the same mind.

 

[Sci]

Procedurals don't have massive casts of recurring characters, so the guest characters we got were fine.

Star Trek: Voyager is not and should not be a procedural.

 

[DigificWriter]

Star Trek: Voyager is not a procedural.

I disagree.

 

[fireproof78]

Honestly, "THRESHOLD" was pretty damn good until the end when The Doctor explained what happened to Paris.

The rest of the episode had some great body horror, creepy scenes, and good character stuff for Tom.

The end does bring the rest down a bit, but take that out of equation, it's a solid episode.

VOYAGER has far better examples (and in later seasons, no less) of bad episodes.

I don't hate it but it's an illogical story that espouses technobabble to cover really annoying plot points.

Does it deserve the hatred? No, but I still rate it quite low.

 

[Oddish]

My issues with Threshold...

1. It screws with Trek canon in that W10 is an infinite, unattainable speed. With this new dilithium, a shuttlecraft can hit it. That's like saying you can put an engine in your mom's minivan that will get it to go 300 mph.

2. It presents a ridiculous inconsistency. If the W10 salamander mutation is so easily preventable or reversible, just ferry everyone home and antiproton them later.

3. The captain and Paris turn... into... @*$#!-ing... salamanders. And they have babies, who are abandoned and never mentioned again.

No other episode is even close to being this ludicrous.