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DC Movies - To Infinity and Beyond

My perspective on this is that I expect a high quality production in these kinds of movies. I don't want to see plot holes or inconsistencies, or dumbed down stories. I want actors to deliver quality performances. I want effects that dazzle me and don't jolt me out of the illusion of the story. I want the movies to remain somewhat true to the spirit of the character they are based on even though I am fine with changes being made from the source material. I don't want to be insulted by the story if I am paying a ticket price to go see it. These things are pretty obvious, I think. Meet this criteria and I am not going to worry too much about why Dr. Strange just doesn't cast a spell that prevents "most" of the world from knowing who Spider-Man is or something similar.
Fair enough. Maybe I'm too kind or whatever but it's been a long time since I have felt insulted by a film.

I'm easy to please though. I don't want effects that dazzle; I want them to work in service to the story. I don't care about the spirit of the original work as long as the characters make sense in the world being built. I don't even mind dumbed down stories if it's done well.

Again, I'm a simple guy. Characters and stories that engage.
 
I don't care about the spirit of the original work as long as the characters make sense in the world being built. I don't even mind dumbed down stories if it's done well.

Again, I'm a simple guy. Characters and stories that engage.

My opinion of this is that if your characters are not somewhat faithful to the original material then you are only using them as name recognition selling opportunities, and the story should involve original characters.

There is plenty of room to manoeuvre and create originality within that. Comics characters evolve and change. A good example, is the X-Men movies--the movie versions were altered from the source characters but they retained enough personality traits to be identifiable as the X-Men.
 
I don't want to be insulted by the story if I am paying a ticket price to go see it.

I'd argue that a significant number of major studio films are guilty of that, with some feeling the need to pander to those who wish to see the same kind of film over and over again.

These things are pretty obvious, I think. Meet this criteria and I am not going to worry too much about why Dr. Strange just doesn't cast a spell that prevents "most" of the world from knowing who Spider-Man is or something similar.

Well, about that last part, it was indicative of the 2nd rate screenwriting and galaxy-sized plot holes found in its franchise, where things happen "just because", not to due to anything even flirting with sense.
 
My opinion of this is that if your characters are not somewhat faithful to the original material then you are only using them as name recognition selling opportunities, and the story should involve original characters.

There is plenty of room to manoeuvre and create originality within that. Comics characters evolve and change. A good example, is the X-Men movies--the movie versions were altered from the source characters but they retained enough personality traits to be identifiable as the X-Men.
I mean...I guess I have seen so many adaptations where the characters don't have those familiar elements I don't find that as an automatic mark against the film. I guess comics are a different animal because there is a lot more material and potential for familiarity, and changes, but it's not a hard line for me.

Mileage will vary.
 
My opinion of this is that if your characters are not somewhat faithful to the original material then you are only using them as name recognition selling opportunities, and the story should involve original characters.

I think it's artificial to draw a dividing line like that. All creativity involves adapting or transforming something that already exists, whether it's a character name or a more general character type. There have been really great stories that take a few recognizable elements like character names and otherwise change them into something completely different, like the Bixby Incredible Hulk, Blade Runner, Who Framed Roger Rabbit?, or How to Train Your Dragon. Shakespeare's Macbeth does the same with real historical figures; in real life, Macbeth was a generally good and benevolent king known for his charitable works. "Should" he have replaced the name Macbeth with a fictional one? It doesn't matter, because names are the most superficial element of a story. They can be useful for their resonance and familiarity, but that's just a starting point, not a stricture.

Originality is not about where a concept or character comes from -- it's about what you do with it. There are countless works of fiction that invent "original" character names but otherwise tell utterly cliched or formulaic stories without a shred of originality. And by the same token, there are many works that reuse established character names or concepts and transform them into something highly original and worthwhile. It's not wrong to do that, because exploring variations on a theme is a basic part of how creativity works. There's no such thing as varying something "too far." All that matters is whether the results work.
 
I think it's artificial to draw a dividing line like that. All creativity involves adapting or transforming something that already exists, whether it's a character name or a more general character type. There have been really great stories that take a few recognizable elements like character names and otherwise change them into something completely different, like the Bixby Incredible Hulk, Blade Runner, Who Framed Roger Rabbit?, or How to Train Your Dragon. Shakespeare's Macbeth does the same with real historical figures; in real life, Macbeth was a generally good and benevolent king known for his charitable works. "Should" he have replaced the name Macbeth with a fictional one? It doesn't matter, because names are the most superficial element of a story. They can be useful for their resonance and familiarity, but that's just a starting point, not a stricture.

Originality is not about where a concept or character comes from -- it's about what you do with it. There are countless works of fiction that invent "original" character names but otherwise tell utterly cliched or formulaic stories without a shred of originality. And by the same token, there are many works that reuse established character names or concepts and transform them into something highly original and worthwhile. It's not wrong to do that, because exploring variations on a theme is a basic part of how creativity works. There's no such thing as varying something "too far." All that matters is whether the results work.

None of this is the type of thing I was referring to.
 
None of this is the type of thing I was referring to.

You said "characters [that] are not somewhat faithful to the original material." I gave examples of characters that are not at all faithful to the original material, that go even further than what you said.

And my point is that there is no "type of thing" that "shouldn't" be done. There are no barriers like the one you're trying to define. Art is about tearing down those kinds of walls and limitations.
 
You said "characters [that] are not somewhat faithful to the original material." I gave examples of characters that are not at all faithful to the original material, that go even further than what you said.

And my point is that there is no "type of thing" that "shouldn't" be done. There are no barriers like the one you're trying to define. Art is about tearing down those kinds of walls and limitations.

Prefaced by "my opinion"--you're free to have yours however incorrect I feel it is. In the context of the discussion, I was talking specifically about comic book movies, the only comic character you referenced was the Hulk series. Regarding that series, even going back to the 80s when I was first able to see some episodes, I immediately realized the character was not the Bruce Banner from the comics. I still feel that the show should have been an original character because it was never the "Hulk" from the comics (something we didn't even come close to until Ang Lee's version)--but the show exists and it was good. It was just never a "hulk" show in my opinion.
 
In the context of the discussion, I was talking specifically about comic book movies

I don't see how that matters. Comic books and their characters don't follow fundamentally different rules from any other type of storytelling. I mean, given that they can be adapted to movies or TV at all, surely that proves the medium isn't a fundamental difference. Stories are stories.
 
And you would be wrong.

The '45 days after theatrical release' policy was one of the first casualties of the Warner Bros.-Discovery merger.

https://tvline.com/2022/08/10/warner-bros-movies-not-coming-to-hbo-max-45-days-later-explained/

Actually literally none of them are. Not for all of their movies anyway. For example, Top Gun 2 is STILL not on P+!
My mistake, I guess it must just be Disney+ and Peacock that are adding stuff quicker.
I could have sworn Maverick was on P+, but I must have just seen the first one and thought that was it.
 
I don't see how that matters. Comic books and their characters don't follow fundamentally different rules from any other type of storytelling. I mean, given that they can be adapted to movies or TV at all, surely that proves the medium isn't a fundamental difference. Stories are stories.

I stand by what I said my opinion was.
 
When I see the nitpicking style it tends to come from a place of not connecting with the film and then having to figure out why. So, already there is an emotional disconnect between what the story was intended to cause as a reaction and the audience member.

Yeah, this is key. I remember one critic writing about how the majority of people aren't actually able to pinpoint precisely why they like or dislike a film. So when asked why they dislike a film, they'll point to the most OBVIOUS flaws, the plot holes and such, figuring that must be the culprit. But if they actually thought about it carefully, they'd realize plenty of films they enjoy have similar plot holes, only they didn't care then because those films were actually good. The plot holes only bother them because of failings on some deeper, less concrete level of the film that they can't readily identify.
 
I think it's artificial to draw a dividing line like that. All creativity involves adapting or transforming something that already exists, whether it's a character name or a more general character type. There have been really great stories that take a few recognizable elements like character names and otherwise change them into something completely different, like the Bixby Incredible Hulk, Blade Runner, Who Framed Roger Rabbit?, or How to Train Your Dragon. Shakespeare's Macbeth does the same with real historical figures; in real life, Macbeth was a generally good and benevolent king known for his charitable works. "Should" he have replaced the name Macbeth with a fictional one? It doesn't matter, because names are the most superficial element of a story. They can be useful for their resonance and familiarity, but that's just a starting point, not a stricture.

Whether or not a given adaptation is good is a separate question from whether it was well-served by being an adaptation. Those works you mention that are "completely different" from their source material might be great, but if they're so different do they really gain more than they lose from not being a wholly original works instead? The question isn't whether the Bixby Hulk is good, it's whether it wouldn't have been better off just being wholly original series The Wandering Hyde or whatever.

(Though granted, I understand in Hollywood there's sometimes not really a choice because of legal issues. If there's a paper trail showing that your concept started life as an adaptation of something, then that's what it is in the eyes of the law, even if it's now completely unrecognizable. You couldn't go and turn it into an original work even if you wanted to.)
 
Those works you mention that are "completely different" from their source material might be great, but if they're so different do they really gain more than they lose from not being a wholly original works instead? The question isn't whether the Bixby Hulk is good, it's whether it wouldn't have been better off just being wholly original series The Wandering Hyde or whatever.

As I said, I think that's misunderstanding what "original" means. Laypeople have this belief that originality requires pulling something completely out of thin air with no precedents, but all creations are reworkings of existing elements in some way. Even if the title and the character names are different, the character types and traits are familiar, the story uses an established structure, etc. Stories are like sentences. They're only meaningful to the audience if they're put together from familiar terms in a recognizable pattern; otherwise they're just gibberish.

All art is based on transformation. Sometimes the transformation is minimal, e.g. in Andy Warhol's paintings of soup cans, and sometimes it's so extreme you can barely recognize the source, e.g. in much of Picasso's work. It's a continuum. There is no point where you can say it's gone "too far" from the source. Would Picasso have been "better off" just painting random shapes instead of abstractions of real people or objects? Of course not, because that wasn't what he was trying to do. He chose an existing starting point for a reason, because that grounding in the original image was still part of his creation just as much as the extremeness of the transformation. Both the similarities and the differences were part of the substance and statement of the work. You can't separate them.

In the specific case of Hulk, I'd say no, it wouldn't have been better to be unconnected to the source. After all, the TV series created a whole new generation of fans and brought new attention to the comics character. Look how much the Marvel Hulk movies and She-Hulk have evoked the TV series despite the near-total disconnect between series and comics. As different as the series is, it's become an inseparable part of the Hulk's pop-culture footprint and has fed back as an influence on the source material. Because that's how creatiivty works. Ideas evolve and transform, sometimes unrecognizably, but that doesn't mean they aren't still connected. And that's the value of keeping the recognizable title and names and imagery even when everything else is changed -- because it preserves that connection and allows the ideas to feed back.


(Though granted, I understand in Hollywood there's sometimes not really a choice because of legal issues. If there's a paper trail showing that your concept started life as an adaptation of something, then that's what it is in the eyes of the law, even if it's now completely unrecognizable. You couldn't go and turn it into an original work even if you wanted to.)

Granted, there are some cases where the changes are so extreme that I do wonder why something is even treated as an adaptation at all. For instance, The CW's Kung Fu is nominally a remake of the David Carradine series, but it's got almost nothing in common aside from centering on a character who learned kung fu in a Shaolin monastery. But in a way, that complete difference is why the connection is relevant, because the new show can be read as a response to the problematic elements of the original show. The original was developed as a starring vehicle for Bruce Lee, but ended up putting a white actor in yellowface makeup in the lead role, which is highly regrettable in retrospect. So the new show, which has a mostly Asian-American cast and showrunner and is very rooted in that perspective, is like a do-over, getting right what the original got wrong. Sure, they could've done the same while giving it a new name, but then it wouldn't have been so clear that it was a response to the original. Sometimes the point is to emphasize the contrast.

The thing is, creativity is a dialogue. Every work is a response to things that came before it. Sometimes it's a close adaptation, sometimes it's a highly revisionist or contrasting adaptation, sometimes it's a clear pastiche or parody under another name, sometimes it's just within the same genre or using similar forms and ideas. But those things all blend together, different hues in the same spectrum, and there aren't any clear dividing lines you can draw. It's up to the individual creator to decide.
 
Black Adam is opening to over 60 million, at least 9 million more than Shazam, which got a sequel. However black Adam cost 200 million to make and needs china to really push it hard to reach profitability (Dwayne Johnson movies do really well in China, usually). Deadline analysis says an argument can be made against making a sequel, but they see the movie's performance as a success. It's Johnson's biggest opening as a leading star, and might even best out Hobbs and shaw, where he was a co star. He has been in ensemble movies that opened bigger.
 
With Johnson really being the name behind this movie, and a cast of relatively unknown DC characters, that sounds encouraging to me but what do I know. I am wondering what the general word on the street reaction is to this film? Are people recommending it to their friends or social media feeds? Or does the public seem to have a similar reaction to the critics?
 
Some interesting fodder for armchair analysis from
https://deadline.com/2022/10/box-office-black-adam-dwayne-johnson-1235151785/

Black Adam
drew 65% guys, 35% women, and the movie got its best grades with the latter, who scored it at 83%. Men over 25 led in attendance at 39%, followed by men under 25 (26%), women over 25 (22% who graded it 84%), and women under 25 (13% at 82%). Of those polled by PostTrak, 44% came because it was a Johnson movie, 39% because it was a superhero film, while 32% said it was because it’s part of a franchise they liked, which is the DC series. In CinemaScore exits, the under 35 demo at 60% gave it a B, while the over 35 who showed up at 40% gave Black Adam an A-.
 
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