Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

[Christopher]

There's change, and then there is CHANGE. What people want is to take the 7 ingredients of the original, remove 2 and add 2 new ones. What they don't want is to remove 5 ingredients and add 5 new ones.

Nothing wrong with that, if the new ingredients are good. "Change" as an abstract category is neither good nor bad. What matters are the specific changes and whether they're worthwhile in their own right. I mean, the Bixby/Ferrigno Incredible Hulk series changed almost everything from the comics, even the protagonist's first name, and it still turned out pretty terrific. The Mission: Impossible movie series has only a tenuous relation to the TV series, featuring different characters and turning what was originally a meticulous heist/caper procedural into a huge action franchise, but aside from the first two, it's a pretty darn good series of action movies. The CW's Charmed remake kept the broad premise but used new characters and changed a lot of the worldbulding, but I actually thought it was better than the original. Indeed, The CW has done other "same general concept but different characters" remakes that I thought worked pretty well, including 4400 and Kung Fu (which barely even has a concept in common with the original).

 

[Anwar]

I am amused by how Werewolf by Night continues to show how fickle the "fans" are.

When Phase 4 started with the D+ shows, Shang Chi and No Way Home, the fans were loving it. Then after MoM and Thor Love and Thunder all of a sudden they're doomongering about the "End of the MCU is at hand". Then Ms Marvel and She Hulk reveal more unsavory aspects of the fandom.

Then Werewolf by Night comes out and all the doomongering stops at the drop of a pin.

Really, I wish they'd stick to their guns.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

I am amused by how Werewolf by Night continues to show how fickle the "fans" are.

When Phase 4 started with the D+ shows, Shang Chi and No Way Home, the fans were loving it. Then after MoM and Thor Love and Thunder all of a sudden they're doomongering about the "End of the MCU is at hand". Then Ms Marvel and She Hulk reveal more unsavory aspects of the fandom.

Then Werewolf by Night comes out and all the doomongering stops at the drop of a pin.

Really, I wish they'd stick to their guns.

Short attention spans.
They don't remember that no phase has been perfect and really it's just a movie by movie thing. I mean... seems to be on par with phase 2, which had 2 great movies but was pretty rough over all. Yet the MCU kept going and I kept enjoying the ride overall. Same as now. Ups and downs but nothing catastrophic.

 

[crookeddy]

Short attention spans.
They don't remember that no phase has been perfect and really it's just a movie by movie thing. I mean... seems to be on par with phase 2, which had 2 great movies but was pretty rough over all. Yet the MCU kept going and I kept enjoying the ride overall. Same as now. Ups and downs but nothing catastrophic.

All the comedies show that Marvel no longer has faith in the source material. If they're giving up, why should we keep paying?

 

[Grendelsbayne]

All the comedies show that Marvel no longer has faith in the source material. If they're giving up, why should we keep paying?

All the comedies? You mean like Iron Man, Thor and The First Avenger? The MCU was always heavily driven by comedies.

 

[Anwar]

All the comedies show that Marvel no longer has faith in the source material. If they're giving up, why should we keep paying?

See, this fickle attitude right here is what I'm talking about.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

MCU fandom isn't a monolith. No single fan speaks for every fan's general thoughts.

That and the MCU is so massive now, of course, there are going to be varying opinions. I think Eternals is underrated but many don't like it. While I enjoyed Falcon and the Winter Soldier, it's probably my least favorite show thus far but I know many have it near the top. And so on.

 

[Tuskin38]

All the comedies show that Marvel no longer has faith in the source material. If they're giving up, why should we keep paying?

Because we like them?

 

[fireproof78]

All the comedies show that Marvel no longer has faith in the source material. If they're giving up, why should we keep paying?

It's entertainment, not a moral judgment.

 

[eschaton]

Short attention spans.
They don't remember that no phase has been perfect and really it's just a movie by movie thing. I mean... seems to be on par with phase 2, which had 2 great movies but was pretty rough over all. Yet the MCU kept going and I kept enjoying the ride overall. Same as now. Ups and downs but nothing catastrophic.

Let's be honest...Phase 1 was mostly meh.

• Iron Man: A good start.
• The Incredible Hulk: Essentially forgotten because Disney doesn't have the rights, but pretty much a forgettable entry regardless
• Iron Man 2: Pretty bad
• Thor: Kinda bland I think given the source material? Thor had a lot of room to grow
• Captain America: The First Avenger: An underrated outing IMHO, but not on the same level as the later films
• Avengers - Why Phase 1 is remembered.

Phase 2 was a step up, but it still had misses (Ultron most notably, but also Thor: The Dark World, and to a lesser extent Ant-Man). Hell, even Phase 3 had some more average outings (Doctor Strange, Ant-Man and the Wasp, Captain Marvel).

Given all of this, I don't think the overall quality level for Phase 4 has been notably bad. It's pretty much the same as it's always been.

 

[Christopher]

The Incredible Hulk: Essentially forgotten because Disney doesn't have the rights

Hardly forgotten. The Battle of Harlem was referenced in Daredevil and elsewhere, Thunderbolt Ross has been a recurring character, Emil Blonsky/Abomination had a cameo in Shang-Chi and a major recurring role in She-Hulk, and apparently Samuel Stearns is returning in Captain America: New World Order.

Given all of this, I don't think the overall quality level for Phase 4 has been notably bad. It's pretty much the same as it's always been.

Agreed. People tend to fall prey to the nostalgia illusion -- they preferentially remember the good stuff from the past and forget the mediocre stuff, so they mistakenly remember the past as better than the present.

 

[Nerys Myk]

All the comedies show that Marvel no longer has faith in the source material. If they're giving up, why should we keep paying?

The source material always had comedic elements.Stan Lee was a funny guy, Spider-man's quips, the slapstick antics of the Thing and the Torch and of course The Sensational She-Hulk. Comedy propelled She-Hulk from a knock off D-lister to fan favorite.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Stan Lee and Jack Kirby appeared as themselves writing the Fantastic Four comic in-universe as early as Fantastic Four number 9. And in later years, Reed, Sue and Johnny would seek out God Himself to restore Ben Grimm to life, and discovered a being who looked just like Jack Kirby sitting at his drawing table.

 

[The Knappos]

It’s easy to dismiss Phase One in 2022. 2008-2012 was a different story. You’re looking back after they changed the game in the context of a game which has changed one and a half times again since.

 

[fireproof78]

Let's be honest...Phase 1 was mostly meh.

It might be the nostalgia talking but rewatching it with my wife I still enjoy Phase 1 the most, especially Captain America and Thor. Dr. Strange is probably the high point for me for whatever phase, and No Way Home the best of the more recent films.

But, yeah, it all averages out.

 

[crookeddy]

The source material always had comedic elements.Stan Lee was a funny guy, Spider-man's quips, the slapstick antics of the Thing and the Torch and of course The Sensational She-Hulk. Comedy propelled She-Hulk from a knock off D-lister to fan favorite.

Let's be honest - we all love Stan, but his writing was total shit. Comics were mostly unreadable until the 80s had a few decent ones, and the 21st century for most.

 

[eschaton]

It might be the nostalgia talking but rewatching it with my wife I still enjoy Phase 1 the most, especially Captain America and Thor. Dr. Strange is probably the high point for me for whatever phase, and No Way Home the best of the more recent films.

But, yeah, it all averages out.

There were aspects of Dr. Strange I loved, like having an ending where he uses his intelligence to defeat the big bad rather than just another boring battle. But it was the wrong choice to make Stephen Strange into a quippy sarcastic dude like Tony Stark.

I agree No Way Home is the best of the more recent films. Still, I think Phase 4 on the whole hasn't been bad at all. Eternals was a huge miss I think, and MoM really fucked up Wanda's character arc/motivation terribly, but I just don't understand the bile poured on Love and Thunder. It almost feels like people don't understand Taika Watiti's style of movies all the sudden.

 

[fireproof78]

But it was the wrong choice to make Stephen Strange into a quippy sarcastic dude like Tony Stark.

Hard disagree. I think he was arrogant to start and his quippiness is a way to still retain that feeling of arrogance without being a completely and total ass.

 

[Jinn]

The source material always had comedic elements.Stan Lee was a funny guy, Spider-man's quips, the slapstick antics of the Thing and the Torch and of course The Sensational She-Hulk. Comedy propelled She-Hulk from a knock off D-lister to fan favorite.

I recently read a Tales of Suspense era Iron Man story, and the letters page had someone complaining that Iron Man is getting to quippy Some things never change.

 

[theenglish]

The source material always had comedic elements.Stan Lee was a funny guy, Spider-man's quips, the slapstick antics of the Thing and the Torch and of course The Sensational She-Hulk. Comedy propelled She-Hulk from a knock off D-lister to fan favorite.

This is probably what most people who don't read comics don't understand. Do they think that Deadpool was the only comedic comic book? I can't wait for the DCCU to introduce Captain Carrot and the Zoo Crew.

I agree also that people tend to remember the past with a sense of nostalgia. The Phase 1 movies were cool at the time (and I still enjoy all of them), but at the time we didn't really expect a lot from super-hero movies. I still think Phase 2 has been my favourite so far, and Phase 4 has been an improvement over Phase 3.

Let's be honest - we all love Stan, but his writing was total shit. Comics were mostly unreadable until the 80s had a few decent ones, and the 21st century for most.

Not sure how old you are, but this is a common generational refrain. I grew up thinking comics were unreadable until the seventies when they became really good.

There were aspects of Dr. Strange I loved, like having an ending where he uses his intelligence to defeat the big bad rather than just another boring battle. But it was the wrong choice to make Stephen Strange into a quippy sarcastic dude like Tony Stark.

I agree with both points here. Dr. Strange should speak more authoritatively, but I imagine it is a tough call to find how that works in actual live action. The writing changed Thor's speaking style in a similar manner.