I have a bit of a problem with La'an being bullied (And Spock in st2009)

[Greg Cox]

Look, it's possible to get carried away with the whole "utopian" business. Star Trek's optimistic vision of the future is a big part of its appeal, but TOS only predicted that tomorrow would be better than today, not that everything would be perfect and that humans wouldn't still be merely human, warts and all. Indeed, as noted earlier, that idea that Spock was bullied as a child dates back to "Journey to Babel," way back in season two of TOS.

To my mind, Trek is at its best when its essential optimism remains grounded in the harsher realities of human nature, as seen on TOS, DS9, DISCO, etc.:

"We're not going to kill . . . today."

"It's easy to be saint in Paradise."

As god-like aliens like to remind us every chance they get, societies may progress, but humanity is still a half-savage child race with a long way to go. Especially out on the Final Frontier . . . where life is often difficult and dangerous.

 

[Sci]

Yeah, if bullying behavior in minors was only a matter of environmental factors or material needs not being met, then middle and upper-middle-class kids who were raised in supportive, nurturing environments and have always had their material needs met, would never be bullies. But obviously some percentage of kids from supportive, safe, loving, wealthy households do still engage in bullying behavior.

I can certainly buy the idea that bullying is a drastically reduced problem in 23rd and 24th Century schools, but I doubt it will have gone way entirely.

 

[Mudd]

Actually, human behavior is a product of environmental influence.

Except that it's not. Environmental influence, well, influences behavior. There is nothing tabula rasa in the human organism.

There have always been ideologies premised on the notion that human beings can be improved if they'll follow this or that economic or religious or philosophical program. When they are permitted to have sway, they oppress everyone, especially those who don't conform. Into the trash bin with all that.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

If human behavior were a product of environmental influence and nothing else, we wouldn't be repeating this conversation, as if scientific evidence refuting the notion hadn't been posted in-thread. Because scientific evidence refuting the notion has been posted upthread, and if environmental influence were all there were, we'd've all learned better.

 

[Brainsucker]

Actually, human behavior is a product of environmental influence. We're not born like that.
We live in a disgusting socio-economic system based on competition so of course you will end up with humans who behave in a negative capacity.

Also, I'm not religious, so these are just abberant forms of behavior which DO have an explanation behind them.

Well, maybe the concept of 7 deadly sins was created by the people of religious minded. But it doesn't mean that these negative desire is not relevant to our discussion. Because greed is actually one of these desire. Now, let put aside the religious matter, but historically, people have already have the WILL to combat these desires. And the most active people who did that were actually religious monks and nuns who lived in a secluded monasteries. A place that far away from civilization. They did everything to kill those desire. They even applied harsh discipline to themselves. But looks, even with everything like that, they still can't kill those desires entirely.

And now fast forward into Star Trek era, where we don't have to worry about anything, anymore. The greed should be vanished.... err, are you sure about that? I don't think so. Unless you want a show that full of monks and nuns who actually do nothing, because they have free themselves from all sins, including "The greed of knowledge" and "the greed to explore".

 

[cooleddie74]

If human behavior were solely an environmental cause then everyone who grew up in abject poverty would be committing crimes to get ahead in life and stealing from their neighbors to make ends meet, and we know that sure isn't happening. I'm sorry, the "environment you grew up in determines your future behavior" scenario just doesn't wash when good people emerge from tragic childhoods and vice versa.

 

[Captain Jollydark]

If human behavior were solely an environmental cause then everyone who grew up in abject poverty would be committing crimes to get ahead in life and stealing from their neighbors to make ends meet, and we know that sure isn't happening. I'm sorry, the "environment you grew up in determines your future behavior" scenario just doesn't wash when good people emerge from tragic childhoods and vice versa.

But I'm really hoping for a future in which basics like food, shelter and healthcare are met no matter what your job pays (or even if you have a job), and quality education is right for everyone no matter what neighborhood you live in. And then, whatever our choices, poverty won't be a driving factor. You could still choose to be asshole, or you could be motivated by getting lots of stuff, or by making art or serving others. Whatever, you'd still be able to eat. As a person who's lived in extreme poverty I know how it motivates behaviors that seem foolish or illogical to those viewing from a comfortable distance. Star Trek is hope that things are better in the future. Bullying is fear based. Eliminate some of those fears and there will be less of it.

On Vulcan, I imagine no one goes hungry, no one is unhoused, no one goes into bankruptcy because of a cancer diagnosis. Even so, few of them probably live as comfortably as Spock's parents. There are people who have more, but most people are content to be regular joes, working regular jobs and raising regular contentedly unambitious children. Like the guy who waits tables (and has no problem telling T'Pring and Spock to get a room) compared to the kissing power couple who can afford to get that very fancy hotel room. If that's Earth in the future I'd be fine with it. I don't need much to be happy (as long as I don't have to fight constantly to get what I need).

 

[Mudd]

It's not difficult to imagine that, given a culture in which everyone has access to a magic salt mill, greed is less conspicuous because it is not encouraged by association with signifiers of status - i.e., "Owning this shows that I'm wealthy, and wealth associates with accomplishment and influence," which is a common enough construction in our current culture.

So excessive consumption and display of wealth might actually result in a lowering of social status, seen as symptomatic of unhealthy dependencies or derangement.

But that whole premise only works well, to the extent it works at all, on the assumption that anyone who wants a Porsche can have one right now. It's got nothing at all to do with ideological notions about systems of government and the morality of economies.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Being civilized is a learned behavior, one that takes a while to be learned and even then some adults don't fully get it. Children being bullies is probably something that will last for as long as we're humans and the same goes for any other sentient species that look remarkably like humans. Humans in Star Trek aren't more evolved than us in a biological sense, they've just reached a higher standard of morals as a society.

 

[Weyoun 251]

Being civilized is a learned behavior, one that takes a while to be learned and even then some adults don't fully get it. Children being bullies is probably something that will last for as long as we're humans and the same goes for any other sentient species that look remarkably like humans. Humans in Star Trek aren't more evolved than us in a biological sense, they've just reached a higher standard of morals as a society.

You only have to look at the tribalism in sports and entertainment, politics, life (rivalries like Liverpool v Everton, Tories (Republicans) v Labour (Democrats), Trek v Wars, Men v Women, racism, homophobia). These all tap into natural tribalism, the genetic and environmental predisposition to favour your own over and above others.

It is a survival mechanism inherent to all whereby one will defend those like them at the expense of those different from them.

It even shows itself in the entrenched views many can have on here - if people were inherently good then who would need mods? It is shown on Twitter and the like in the echo chambers that develop as you gravitate to those with the same views as you.

There is a really interesting test developed by some people at Harvard to test your unconscious biases that is worth looking up - the way it works is to do with classifying words that appear on the screen into categories and to do so as quickly and accurately as possible with errors and delays being recorded and helping to show where your brain is effectively biased against a position as it takes longer to recognise a match that does not align with your own traits.

This is also shown in issues people have in recognising faces - babies recognise their parents faces but struggle to recognise those who aren't part of their "tribe". From a racial perspective "they all look the same" (see TUC for Trek even leaning into this with Klingons) has some truth due to the brain recognising differences in features more easily in those of the same race than of a different race.

These things can be unlearned through environmental factors but never go away 100%

 

[Gary Bitchell]

I find it interesting that you propose that the bullying is a new problem. Spock being bullied was directly mentioned in TOS by Amanda and shown in TAS. It wasn't an invention of 2009 or SNW.

 

[ED-209]

Even now the difference between kids and adults (when it comes to these things) is the adults have learned how to exist in a civilised society - where anyone worth the oxygen they breath isn't a bully in adulthood. The same will be true in the 23rd century and beyond, it's not the bullying that's learnt behaviour it's the not bullying that's learnt behaviour.

Yeah, if bullying behavior in minors was only a matter of environmental factors or material needs not being met, then middle and upper-middle-class kids who were raised in supportive, nurturing environments and have always had their material needs met, would never be bullies. But obviously some percentage of kids from supportive, safe, loving, wealthy households do still engage in bullying behavior.

I can certainly buy the idea that bullying is a drastically reduced problem in 23rd and 24th Century schools, but I doubt it will have gone way entirely.

Private schools that have term costs more than a working class mans annual salary have bullies.

 

[Nombrecomun]

If at some point we stop being self-centered beings(and all that comes along with that such as self-preservation, love, greed, sense of community, etc...) then we stop being human.

Our brains have evolved for self-preservation. That's going to include a variety of behaviours that we label as 'negative'. It can also include behaviours that we label as 'positive'.

On a separate thought, I am always reminded that we are one global disaster away from sacrificing virgins and other such nonsense.

 

[Lord Hierarch]

Kids gonna be kids.

That's why you must apply the Vulcan smack to educate them otherwise they'll get the Andorian pummel.

And if that doesn't work, the Human backslap or Denobula double-down.

 

[ichab]

Yeah, if bullying behavior in minors was only a matter of environmental factors or material needs not being met, then middle and upper-middle-class kids who were raised in supportive, nurturing environments and have always had their material needs met, would never be bullies. But obviously some percentage of kids from supportive, safe, loving, wealthy households do still engage in bullying behavior.

Yep! I saw this behavior constantly growing up. Well off kids with their Air Jordans and expensive cloths making fun of kids who got their cloths from Kmart. Then when they became teenagers it was all about their expensive cars while the rest of us had to make due with the old family car that had been passed down the family tree. The rich guy being a bully is also a pretty common trope in fiction. Watch the first Spiderman movie and you see how flash bullies Peter Parker. Upbringing is only a small part of what shapes people.

 

[Jono11]

I don't believe children in the 23rd century would do that.

Take it up with TAS, which first established that Spock was bullied as a kid.

"My dad could lick your dad".

I suppose he could, but why would he want to lick him?

 

[Jono11]

When is Federation society supposed to be perfect, may I ask? Because I found it ludicrous they gave up hunting and eating meat in the 22nd century.

Why? They have replicators. There's a (ever-narrowing) case to be made for eating meat in the year 2023. But if you have replicators that can produce meat--indistinguishable from the genuine article--on demand, and you still insist on killing sentient creatures for sport and/or profit, there's really no way to couch that in a way that doesn't make you an absolute psycho. You're a kid burning ants with a magnifying glass and torturing small rodents at that point.

 

[Tuskin38]

Real meat/animal products has been mentioned in the 24th century shows. Picard kept real caviar on the Enterprise-D because he didn't like the replicted stuff, Riker acquired alien eggs from a Starbase. O'Brien says his mother cooked with real meat (the mention of which disgusts Keiko).

Now eggs aren't quite the same as meat. Maybe the meat was lab grown or something.

 

[Jono11]

No baby is born greedy, or jealous, or lazy, or anything else.

I might argue the reverse pretty vigorously. We instinctually want to provide for ourselves. Primates (and many other kinds of animals, to be sure) learn and teach one another to moderate those impulses. I think we're both arriving at the same place--human beings can eventually have a much more enlightened society, and indeed it's almost assured if we can just outlast our deadlier tendencies--but from different starting points. You believe that humans are born blank slates and are taught either good or evil, whereas I believe all animals are born with survival instincts and are then taught either how to moderate and modulate them or how to give in to them and let them subsume their entire being.

 

[Jono11]

Real meat/animal products has been mentioned in the 24th century shows. Picard kept real caviar on the Enterprise-D because he didn't like the replicted stuff, Riker acquired alien eggs from a Starbase. O'Brien says his mother cooked with real meat (the mention of which disgusts Keiko).

Eggs aren't sentient, but I absolutely get Keiko's revulsion.