In what ways is the Federation Fascist?

[Voodoowoman2]

Now I know this is controversial. Scotty tells an alien in trying to get them to join Starfleet that the Federation is strong because it is like a bundle of sticks. Fascist derives from the Latin "Fasces" meaning ' bundle of sticks" This was the metaphor Hitler used for the Third Reich as well. Is the Federation becoming the Fourth Reich?
In Voyager we see the Federation with the ability to read memory engrams of the brain in detail and erase or change them. They also show the willingness to use this technology.
Fascism involves centralized government control of media, transportation, commerce and education to name just a few things. All travel in space is governed by the Federation. There is the FNN Federation News Network and FSN Federation Space News and they own all they subspace relays giving them the ability to read and filter all content.
The Federation is much darker than we ever imagined. Now anyone name calling me is just engaging in the Ad hominin attack so I ignore those posts.

 

[1001001]

None

 

[The Wormhole]

Don't know if I'd say the Federation is fascist per se, but I see how one could reach that conclusion. It certainly does come off as totalitarian in that everything is either state-run, state-owned, or is a division of Starfleet, or at least answers to Starfleet or is in some way connected to Starfleet. We know the Federation is expansionist, a trait which gets worse as time goes by to the point it seems prior to the Burn the Federation was actually bullying races into joining, or so the Butterfly people in Disco's S4 premiere indicated. Even after the Burn, the Federation was viewed by many as being run by corrupt hypocrites. Certainly Eddington's comparison of the Federation to the Borg certainly rings true the deeper you look at the Federation.

Regardless if it's fascist or not, the Federation is certainly a messed up place and not the happy-go-luck utopia it tries to present itself as.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Fascism involves centralized government control of media, transportation, commerce and education to name just a few things.

None of which the Federation engages in.

All travel in space is governed by the Federation.

No, it isn't.

There is the FNN Federation News Network

Along with a lot of OTHER networks, such as Starfleet Broadcasting, Earth Broadcasting Service, etc.

We know the Federation is expansionist

You either expand or you die. That's the way it is with all nations. The Federation is no different. Everyone expands - it's just the manner in which they do it that differs.

The Federation expands by inviting (not forcing) new worlds to join, by pointing out the benefits they can enjoy if they do so. Other entities, such as the Borg, absorb by force. The Federation doesn't do that.

prior to the Burn the Federation was actually bullying races into joining

No, it wasn't.

or so the Butterfly people in Disco's S4 premiere indicated.

And we should take them at their word...why, exactly?

 

[The Wormhole]

And we should take them at their word...why, exactly?

What reason do they have to lie?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

What reason do they have to lie?

Because they'd never been members of the Federation before. They have no idea that the Federation is benevolent. As outsiders, they naturally assume the Federation's intentions are evil, without any evidence to that effect.

It wasn't until the Federation proved its good intentions that the butterfly people were willing to join.

 

[Orphalesion]

Well, for starters a fascist empire wouldn't allow their member planets to secede when they so wish, and we know from the history of Tasha's homeworld that the Federation allows that.
Also a fascist empire would have forced the colonists in Ensigns of Command to relocate whether they liked or not instead of asking and recommending and fighting for their rights in the negotiation with the Sheliak (or alternatively would have started a war with the Sheliak over that which would have had the goal to annex as much of Sheliak territory as possible)
It would also have pressured Bajor heavily to join or downright occupied it instead of just giving it an open invitation.
Plus the Federation seems to allow its members a lot of freedom in which to structure their societies and governments, depending on which way you interpret Troi's words in Angel One, Betazed society is either dominated by its women, ruled by some sort of oligarchy or both and that is very different form the culture of humans in the 24th century (which is egalitarian and democratic)

Why is it that a number people must insist that the Federation is, somehow, totalitarian when there's so much evidence to the contrary? Wasn't the idea thoroughly deconstructed through Eddington?

 

[The Wormhole]

Because they'd never been members of the Federation before. They have no idea that the Federation is benevolent. As outsiders, they naturally assume the Federation's intentions are evil, without any evidence to that effect.

It wasn't until the Federation proved its good intentions that the butterfly people were willing to join.

Except joining wasn't even on the table at the time, Michael just wanted to give them dilithium which is what they objected to due to the Federation bullying them before the Burn. And indeed, we've certainly heard other less than flattering descriptions of the Federation prior to the Burn. They ignored the warnings from Ni'Var that their FTL experiments could have disastrous consequences, and as a result, Ni'Var became convinced they had in fact caused the Burn.

 

[Orphalesion]

One more thing; A fascist government wouldn't give its navy/army/exploration fleet a rule of non-interference like the PD. It would give them free hand to meddle and manipulate in whichever way would profit the government.

Example: A planet with a primitive civilization about to be hit by an asteroid that would send the planet into a nuclear winter-like cold phase?
If the Federation was fascist, they'd destroy the comet and then take over the planet, settling it and either genocide the natives or enslave them (or both)

Edit: Or that planet in First Contact (the episode) if the Federation was Fascist, they wouldn't have left the planet alone after the leader asked them to, they would have never even give him that option, they would have forced it into the fold, so to say.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I'm disappointed that so many are taking the simplistic view that fascism is merely suppression, thus confusing the repressive force of fascism with the ordinary police functions of the state. Fascism is freedom and empowerment for some, but not others. It is freedom to do violence. It is freedom to represss. It is freedom to indulge in one's fantasies to get "revenge" against minorities. It is the power to use the justice system to take the lives and possessions of the weak. It is the power to blame others for your own shortcomings.

Fascism is freedom to hate.

It is not the Federation.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

One more thing; A fascist government wouldn't give its navy/army/exploration fleet a rule of non-interference like the PD. It would give them free hand to meddle and manipulate in whichever way would profit the government.

Indeed, they wouldn't have a noninterference directive - they'd have an INTERFERENCE directive.

As for the butterfly people: If they assume that any overtures, no matter how positive, the Federation makes towards them - even the most innocent plans to make their case - constitutes bullying, that's on THEM, not the Federation.

Why is it that a number people must insist that the Federation is, somehow, totalitarian when there's so much evidence to the contrary?

Whether it be fictional governments or real ones - people always expect the authorities to be perfect. Whatever is not perfectly good is assumed to be absolutely evil. Flaws are no longer deemed acceptable. The government makes the SLIGHTEST mistake and there's rioting in the streets. Hell, it's going on out in the real world right ing now.

 

[Orphalesion]

I'm disappointed that so many are taking the simplistic view that fascism is merely suppression, thus confusing the repressive force of fascism with the ordinary police functions of the state. Fascism is freedom and empowerment for some, but not others. It is freedom to do violence. It is freedom to represss. It is freedom to indulge in one's fantasies to get "revenge" against minorities. It is the power to use the justice system to take the lives and possessions of the weak. It is the power to blame others for your own shortcomings.

Fascism is freedom to hate.

It is not the Federation.

Well, I mention that a supposed Fascist Federation would give the Captains the freedom to meddle and interfere for the interest of the state up to and including committing genocide.

Though if you look at real fascist states there wasn't just a freedom to do violence and hate, there was a compulsion to do violence and hate and failing to do so or acting against the state mandated hate could get you in trouble.

 

[Kor]

...
You either expand or you die. That's the way it is with all nations. The Federation is no different. Everyone expands - it's just the manner in which they do it that differs.

The Federation expands by inviting (not forcing) new worlds to join, by pointing out the benefits they can enjoy if they do so. Other entities, such as the Borg, absorb by force. The Federation doesn't do that.
...

I wouldn't consider the Federation itself to be a nation, though. It's a coalition of many. Its member planets have worldwide unity, so they could be considered equivalents to 'nations' in themselves. But anyway, doesn't there come a point where the Federation has enough member worlds that it can be self-sufficient and doesn't need to keep expanding its borders? And for resources that the Federation doesn't have, there is always mutually beneficial trade with allies who don't have to be Federation members themselves.

Kor

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Well, I mention that a supposed Fascist Federation would give the Captains the freedom to meddle and interfere for the interest of the state up to and including committing genocide.

Yep, it's the "interference directive" I just spoke of.

I got that from those Best of Trek books that used to be out a few years ago. In one of them, there was a timeline of (our) Federation, one of the entries of which was:

"The first major violation of the Prime Noninterference Directive occurs when Captain James Smithson intervenes to prevent a nuclear conflict on Vega Proxima."

In another volume, the very same entry is played out - but it's the Terran Empire's version:

"The first major execution of the Prime Instigation Directive occurs when Captain James Smithson intervenes to promote a nuclear conflict on Vega Proxima."

Because you KNOW that's in the Empire's wheelhouse...but never the Federation's.

 

[TheForge]

The Vulcans are fascists.

 

[Orphalesion]

But anyway, doesn't there come a point where the Federation has enough member worlds that it can be self-sufficient and doesn't need to keep expanding its borders? And for resources that the Federation doesn't have, there is always mutually beneficial trade with allies who don't have to be Federation members themselves.

Kor

A lot of the expansion the Federation does that we see during the shows doesn't seem about the Federation trying to get more members as much as independent (often weak) worlds actively try to become members of the Federation for the benefits and protection that would entail.
I mean the whole application process seems to be very demanding and picky about which planets or other polities it decides to allow into the Federation.

 

[BillJ]

No, it isn't.

"Mudd's Women" would seem to agree with the idea the Federation governs space travel. With Kirk tossing a list of charges at Mudd.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Define "governs space travel".

The Federation is completely within its rights to set some kind of regulations regarding travel within its borders. It's not the ing Wild West out there - it's Federation territory. Travelers have to abide by Federation law, their craft must have the appropriate permits, the rights of passengers must be respected, contraband must be confiscated, etc. Every civilized government does this. It doesn't make them fascist.

And really...using Harry Mudd as an example? You really want to go down that road?

 

[Orphalesion]

Exactly every single government in reality exercises some control on travel through and across their borders.

And really...using Harry Mudd as an example? You really want to go down that road?

Not just Harry Mudd, but Mudd's Women, which really isn't Star Trek's finest hour for a variety of reasons.

 

[BillJ]

Define "governs space travel".

The Federation is completely within its rights to set some kind of regulations regarding travel within its borders. It's not the ing Wild West out there - it's Federation territory. Travelers have to abide by Federation law, their craft must have the appropriate permits, the rights of passengers must be respected, contraband must be confiscated, etc. Every civilized government does this. It doesn't make them fascist.

And really...using Harry Mudd as an example? You really want to go down that road?

Then the Federation governs space travel. You said they didn’t.

As far as “Mudd’s Women” goes, it is part of the Holy Canon.