I'm content to let Mr. Shaw get things scaled right, before I start taking his hard work and shuffling it all around and telling everyone why I'm right and everyone else is a clod. 
Another fan attempt at TOS deck plans
- Thread starter Shaw
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Here is a very rough animation of the decks I sorta have mapped out (even if only as an outline). I made use of Casimiro's top view and inside nacelle for this, but didn't attempt to work with his secondary hull (or even clean up that part) in this test. I just wanted to see how stuff fit together so far.
I was also playing around with some numbers and realized that the interior volume of the secondary hull is almost the same as the volume of the USS Washington (BB-56) below the weather deck. The reason this is significant (at least to me) is that the Washington had a total complement of 2,339, where as the Enterprise has a complement of 430 living in a much larger volume. Obviously everyone was packed in much tighter on the Washington than the Enterprise, but it does sorta illustrate the fact that 430 isn't that large a crew for a vessel of this size.
I was also playing around with some numbers and realized that the interior volume of the secondary hull is almost the same as the volume of the USS Washington (BB-56) below the weather deck. The reason this is significant (at least to me) is that the Washington had a total complement of 2,339, where as the Enterprise has a complement of 430 living in a much larger volume. Obviously everyone was packed in much tighter on the Washington than the Enterprise, but it does sorta illustrate the fact that 430 isn't that large a crew for a vessel of this size.
True, but I think you have to take into account the fact that the Enterprise is *entirely* self-sufficient. The Washington got re-supplied every so often, and they didn't have to worry about carrying their own air. I would imagine that even in the 23rd century, those kinds of provisions would start to significantly cut into your living space.
But that brings us back to the example of 1930s submarines compared to today's... back in the 1930s the people would have thought that you would have needed massive amounts of space for fuel and air to stay submerged for periods approaching a year at a time. But most of those issues were solved within a span of about 40 years. We are talking about a spacecraft of more than 200 years into the future... are you really saying that we should expect that anything we would consider needed today will be applicable to something that far in the future?
My guess is that if the Enterprise had enough space to support the crew for three months with our technology, it could easily support the same crew for up to 10 years with technology of the future. The Enterprise would be a completely closed system, and literally everything is recycled over and over and over again. The main issue with recycling stuff is to return the life support potential to the materials, which is little more than using energy to return them to a state that humanoids would need to live off of them. And why would we expect that type of equipment to take up more than the space of... say a refrigerator. A couple dozen of these placed around the ship, and use all of the deck spaces on the Enterprise that aren't high enough to be considered standard habitable areas for storage, and you would have far more space than would be needed for it's missions. Which is a good thing as it seems that part of the Enterprise's mission includes postal services for outlying colonies.
What is funny is that most of the estimates I'm making are rather conservative, specially considering our current technology. In all actuality far less space should be required to support that many people that far into the future (if advances of the past are used as a measure).
I've often found that what fans seem to really want is plans for the Enterprise using today's technology (or within the technological horizons of their lifetime) rather than plans of the Enterprise of 2245.
Now, if we were talking about plans of... say, the Discovery from 2001, I would totally agree with you. And some of the cheats that they made (like the incredibly small diameter of the internal drum which advisors to the film explained would be to small to keep the Coriolis forces from causing dizziness) just can't be overcome even today (9 years after the fictional Discovery was launched).
Space for air, food, water and the equipment needed for 100% recycling of them are the least of the technical issues facing the Enterprise... those are actually within reason compared to warp drive and artificial gravity.
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Shaw, I went over your renderings more closely yesterday evening and I must say that I'm very impressed. Very well done. :thumbsup:
And I almost missed the part where you used my 26ft. shuttlecraft for reference. I'm gratified to see how well they fit. Neato.
I'm looking forward to see how your project continues to develop.
And I almost missed the part where you used my 26ft. shuttlecraft for reference. I'm gratified to see how well they fit. Neato.
I'm looking forward to see how your project continues to develop.
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Shaw - To further bolster your point, let us not forget that this was intended to be a 5 year mission. It is well within the current ability of a nuclear powered submarine to stay submerged for years at a time. The only reasons they don't are the inability to feed themselves much beyond 80 - 90 days (in interviewing for JAG positions while in law school I spoke with a CPO who said his longer cruise was about 88 days) and the extremely confined space. Forget the spacious accomodations of the Dallas and Red October in "The Hunt for Red October." the real Dallas' command center is a closet with about 6 - 8 submariners shoehorned in (just based on my own observation - I have never been aboard a sub while underway) and a table that was maybe 2 feet by 2 feet for the Officer on Deck to review navigational charts, etc.
Modern subs receive all fresh water via converted sea water and use excess hydrogen to power fuel cells, not to mention the big honkin' nuclear reactor that generates the majority of the power.
Even TOS writers recognized this (albeit, probably mistakenly). Take at the episode wherein our intrepid heros meet a race that has placed its consciousnesses into spheres (they use Kirk, Spock, and McCoy's bodies to build android bodies for themselves). Kirk has a moment where he is possessed by the leader and afterwards describes an engine capable of powering the Enterprise, but the size of a walnut. Scotty scoffs at this claiming that it isn't possible, but we later learn that this is an extremely advanced race and that they had that very technology.
Same thing applies here. We may not believe it capable at this time, but given the project that Shaw is attempting, we have to be open to the possibility that a ship of that size with a crew of over 400 could feed and maintain itself for at least 5 years.
Just my $0.02. Your mileage may vary (at at these gas prices, they very likely will!!
Thanks again for the encouragement guys!
So I was playing around with how things might look on deck 7. Inside the center pressure hull compartment would be sickbay and some of the other life sciences types of stuff.
The outer compartments I've divided up a little differently. There are four compartments (fore, aft, port, starboard) which are associated with external elements on the model... which generally look like windows or hatches. So it seemed like a good idea to isolate those areas to themselves.
If we assume that those are hatches, then they may be there for loading things, so the remaining compartments around the outside (which are oddly shaped enough to make them hard to use for existing sets) could be storage areas or machine bays... or both. Either way, I'll most likely just leave them unoccupied.
I decided to extend out the recovery wards following the angles started on the set plans to see how far they would go... and oddly enough what I ended up with was something not all that different from what we saw in TMP and TWOK for sickbay.
Anyways, this was a deck I hadn't visited yet, so I thought I would share some early ideas.
So I was playing around with how things might look on deck 7. Inside the center pressure hull compartment would be sickbay and some of the other life sciences types of stuff.
The outer compartments I've divided up a little differently. There are four compartments (fore, aft, port, starboard) which are associated with external elements on the model... which generally look like windows or hatches. So it seemed like a good idea to isolate those areas to themselves.
If we assume that those are hatches, then they may be there for loading things, so the remaining compartments around the outside (which are oddly shaped enough to make them hard to use for existing sets) could be storage areas or machine bays... or both. Either way, I'll most likely just leave them unoccupied.
I decided to extend out the recovery wards following the angles started on the set plans to see how far they would go... and oddly enough what I ended up with was something not all that different from what we saw in TMP and TWOK for sickbay.
Anyways, this was a deck I hadn't visited yet, so I thought I would share some early ideas.
I've been following this thread for a while now, and everything I've seen so far is most impressive. 
The recovery wards are definately interesting. Something you could do with the recovery wards is combine them into one room, that way you'll have room for beds on the left and right sides, like what we saw onscreen.
One question, and this may seem like a stupid one, but would you be willing to include anything depicted in the Franz Joseph technical manual and/or blueprints? Just as a supplement to the main project, of course.
The recovery wards are definately interesting. Something you could do with the recovery wards is combine them into one room, that way you'll have room for beds on the left and right sides, like what we saw onscreen.One question, and this may seem like a stupid one, but would you be willing to include anything depicted in the Franz Joseph technical manual and/or blueprints? Just as a supplement to the main project, of course.
Nifty layout for Sickbay.
As for recovery wards, I don't there'd be very many of them. Only for those just recovering from surgery (doubt there'd be more than one or two at any given time). Otherwise, they'd be simply sent back to their own quarters to convalesce.
More room for science labs, that way.
As for recovery wards, I don't there'd be very many of them. Only for those just recovering from surgery (doubt there'd be more than one or two at any given time). Otherwise, they'd be simply sent back to their own quarters to convalesce.
More room for science labs, that way.
Interesting deck plan you've got there, but I think FJ had the right idea for the sickbay layout. Basically, he restored it to the way MJ had (apparently?) originally intended it to be, with the beds following the curviture of the main hallway. It was no doubt partly due to space limitations of the soundstage that resulted in the wall being pulled sharply inward resulting in the layout we saw onscreen, an added bonus of doing this was that it also provided for more practical and/or dramatic camara angles. This is not unlike the decision to move the bridge turbolift over from the centerline behind the captain to its now familiar location 36 deg. offset.
Thanks again for the encouragement guys!
So I was playing around with how things might look on deck 7. Inside the center pressure hull compartment would be sickbay and some of the other life sciences types of stuff.
The outer compartments I've divided up a little differently. There are four compartments (fore, aft, port, starboard) which are associated with external elements on the model... which generally look like windows or hatches. So it seemed like a good idea to isolate those areas to themselves.
If we assume that those are hatches, then they may be there for loading things, so the remaining compartments around the outside (which are oddly shaped enough to make them hard to use for existing sets) could be storage areas or machine bays... or both. Either way, I'll most likely just leave them unoccupied.
I decided to extend out the recovery wards following the angles started on the set plans to see how far they would go... and oddly enough what I ended up with was something not all that different from what we saw in TMP and TWOK for sickbay.
Anyways, this was a deck I hadn't visited yet, so I thought I would share some early ideas.
I'm curious; why did you choose this particular deck for Sickbay? FJ put it smack in the middle in the saucer on the broadest deck IIRC.
Don't forget the decompression/compression chamber used in "Space Seed" by Khan to torture Kirk, then again in "The Lights of Zetar" to drive the non-corporeal aliens out of Lt. Romaine's body. Also remember in the last act of "The Ultimate Computer", it was shown there's a turbolift across the hallway from the Sickbay's main Emergency Room. I don't agree with the notion that Sickbay would not have more extensive convalescent wards and/or surgery rooms. We have to remember that this is a Starfleet vessel; which, while not specifically designed as a warship, the Enterprise is supposed to be able to handle dangerous situations, including combat. We have seen the Enterprise dispatched on medical supply and rescue missions. These kinds of situations suggest the ship must be able to handle casualties, including the treatment and convalescence of "guests". There's also another possibility: contagious disease. The Enterprise should house a special ICU/isolation ward.
Another item that should be expected near Sickbay would be an airlock, like the one Kirk and Spock used for their spacewalk in TMP.
It's a starship, not a hospital ship.
It should be noted that in that illustration I was totally braking my own rules by attempting to fill in stuff that wasn't shown... the recovery ward is a three wall set, and in the end I'll most likely use the bed (and wall) arrangement from Tomorrow is Yesterday. In this case I was just wondering how much stuff could be packed in.
April pointed out that that amount of beds wouldn't logically be there as most people who are ill would be returned to their quarters, while Wingsley also makes a good point as to why a number of standing beds would be needed. My guess is that it must be somewhere in between the two... a fare number of standing beds, with recreation and briefing rooms standing in for emergencies.
On the idea that alterations (like the bridge angle and the like) should be made because it was intended to be one way but built another... anyone wanting to figure out another way of doing things is perfectly free to do so. But I'm not planning on looking at this as an Irwin Allen production.
Also, I have no objections to FJ's element being used... I liked his work. I'm just not planning on putting that type of stuff into these plans. Obviously, once one recovery room and the expanded part of another is removed, there is a ton of open space for all sorts of stuff (including things from FJ).
As that was an embarrassing mistake made on bad assumptions, I've decided to take a little more time and hunt down better sources for what goes where. This list is based on a quick search via dialog, but I'll also take some time to hunt down visual sources for stuff too.
Deck 1
Deck 10
Deck 11
Deck 14
Deck 15
Deck 16 (Engineering decks)
Deck 18
Deck 19
Deck 20
On the subject of corridor/turbolift placement based on on-screen evidence... the fact that there was little more than a small curved section of corridor with even smaller straight sections at either end makes it pretty much out of the question to attempt to match up that type of stuff. So the only question I'll be addressing is if the main entrance to a set is a corridor or a turbolift. The corridors and turbolift placement will be based on a best guess for arrangement in these plans.
April pointed out that that amount of beds wouldn't logically be there as most people who are ill would be returned to their quarters, while Wingsley also makes a good point as to why a number of standing beds would be needed. My guess is that it must be somewhere in between the two... a fare number of standing beds, with recreation and briefing rooms standing in for emergencies.
On the idea that alterations (like the bridge angle and the like) should be made because it was intended to be one way but built another... anyone wanting to figure out another way of doing things is perfectly free to do so. But I'm not planning on looking at this as an Irwin Allen production.
Also, I have no objections to FJ's element being used... I liked his work. I'm just not planning on putting that type of stuff into these plans. Obviously, once one recovery room and the expanded part of another is removed, there is a ton of open space for all sorts of stuff (including things from FJ).
I thought I had recalled sickbay's location being on deck 7 having been put forward by some other source, but upon further review, it seems that sickbay is on deck 5.Wingsley said:
As that was an embarrassing mistake made on bad assumptions, I've decided to take a little more time and hunt down better sources for what goes where. This list is based on a quick search via dialog, but I'll also take some time to hunt down visual sources for stuff too.
Deck 1
Bridge
Deck 2Dignitary staterooms (The Enterprise Incident), Pike's old quarters (?)
Deck 3recreation room (Charlie X, Let That Be Your Last Battlefield)
Deck 4crew quarters (implied... Ultimate Computer)
Deck 5recreation room (Let That Be Your Last Battlefield)
Kirk's quarters (Journey To Babel, Mirror, Mirror)
crew quarters (Man Trap)
sickbay (Amok Time, Elaan of Troyius)
Deck 6Kirk's quarters (Journey To Babel, Mirror, Mirror)
crew quarters (Man Trap)
sickbay (Amok Time, Elaan of Troyius)
Briefing room (Return to Tomorrow, Day of the Dove)
guest quarters (Let That Be Your Last Battlefield)
Deck 7guest quarters (Let That Be Your Last Battlefield)
main energizers (Doomsday Machine)
Deck 8auxiliary control (I, Mudd)
Deck 9Deck 10
Deck 11
Jefferies Tube (Journey To Babel)
Deck 12Rand's quarters (Enemy Within)
Deck 13Deck 14
Deck 15
Deck 16 (Engineering decks)
-A Deck
Hangar Deck
Main Engineering
Deck 17Hangar Deck observation gallery
Emergency Manual Monitor room
-B DeckEmergency Manual Monitor room
Hangar Deck
Main Engineering
Deck 18
Deck 19
Deck 20
On the subject of corridor/turbolift placement based on on-screen evidence... the fact that there was little more than a small curved section of corridor with even smaller straight sections at either end makes it pretty much out of the question to attempt to match up that type of stuff. So the only question I'll be addressing is if the main entrance to a set is a corridor or a turbolift. The corridors and turbolift placement will be based on a best guess for arrangement in these plans.
As for sickbay being on deck five, I don't recall the reference from 'Elaan of Troyius' but it could be argued that while in 'Amok Time' it is implied sickbay was on deck five, it could also be argued that kirk was simply taking Spock to his Quarters on deck five, since when entering the turbo lift, Kirk did not say "sickbay deck five" but simply "deck five"? Is the referance from 'EOT' more solid? I'll review the ep. later, but if you want to refresh my memory I'd apreciate it.
Actually, the two together make it a stronger argument... this is what was said in Elaan of Troyius:
Kirk: I want you to go to Sick Bay. It's the best protected part of the ship.
Elaan: I want to be by your side.
Kirk: Your presence here is interfering with my efficiency --
my ability to protect you.... Mr. Spock, you have the con.
-Kirk enters turbolift with Elaan-
Kirk: Deck five.
I couldn't find any reference to sickbay on decks other than 5, so in the current absence of contradictions, I'll put it on deck 5 (which still has the same amount of room set aside that I was using on deck 7).Elaan: I want to be by your side.
Kirk: Your presence here is interfering with my efficiency --
my ability to protect you.... Mr. Spock, you have the con.
-Kirk enters turbolift with Elaan-
Kirk: Deck five.
The Amok Time reference has to be taken with the consideration that Kirk had already spoken with McCoy and that had Spock not reported, McCoy would have alerted Kirk. That sort of makes the idea that Kirk was taking him to his quarters a little out of the way... why delay Spock's appointment that he himself had setup? That is the way I looked at it at any rate.
I haven't found a good place for the transporter room yet, so maybe that'll go on 7... I haven't exhausted all the areas I could reference though. The dialog was the fastest reference to search, so I did it first.
Franz Joseph's primary reference for locating rooms within the Enterprise seems to have been Stephen E. Whitfield's The Making of Star Trek. At the time, there was no reason to assume that the book was in error, and with no videocassettes or DVDs, it would not have been very easy to discover such errors.
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