Hence, why there is no sin in Tolkien, the point this exchange started on.
Spoilers Lord of the Rings TV series
- Thread starter Cyrus
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Ah, I see, we are looking at this technically.
Technically, you are correct. I bow to your superior knowledge, sir.
I just got the impression from Orphalesion's posts earlier that Tolkien infused more Catholic analogy in the work than is actually in evidence. The repeated use of sin which has a specific meaning and use in the religion which is in no way applicable to Tolkien's Middle Earth. There is no technicality to it whatsoever.Ah, I see, we are looking at this technically.
Technically, you are correct. I bow to your superior knowledge, sir.
There is to me. But, again, you win.
Is the show any good so far? I don’t wanna read back through the thread ‘cause I don’t want to be spoiled, but obviously there’s some Tolkien fans here of which I’m definitely one.
How does it measure up?
How does it measure up?
My Tolkien nut wife loves it. I like it, especially Elrond.
One thing thing about Halbrand that I thought was interesting that I haven't seen a lot of comments on, was his reluctance to fight the guys who were harassing him. I have two theories right now about this, depending on who he really is. One is that he's not Sauron, but he has some kind of dark past that he's trying to escape, and being forced to fight them, brought that back up for him.
The other is that he is Sauron, and he was afraid his fight with them would give him away.
I'm leaning more towards the first one right now, because I would think Sauron would have had no problem slaughtering them all the moment there was no one else around.
The other is that he is Sauron, and he was afraid his fight with them would give him away.
I'm leaning more towards the first one right now, because I would think Sauron would have had no problem slaughtering them all the moment there was no one else around.
I lean toward the second. Also these were just the sort of guys that Sauron would like to recruit to his side so he was hesitant to fight them. The fact that he did take them all on using more violence than was required reminded me of Sauron's fight in the prologue to Peter Jackson's Fellowship movie. Halbrand was restrained enough not to use his magic Maia Fu.
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There seem to be no Garden of Eden, no Original Sin, and no Fall of Man in the legendarium. There are the Undying Lands of Valinor, the Kinslayings by Elves of Elves, and the Gift of Men. Obviously, these do not map onto Old Testament theology as the legendarium was not intended as allegory.
Tolkien set out to create a montheistic mythology for the English that substituted angels (Valar) for Anglo-Saxon deities, but not a thinly disguised version of Abrahamic beliefs. As he stated later, he realised that his Catholic beliefs diffused into it although that was not his original intention.
I have no real idea of the nature of sin and good and evil in the legendarium - other than it seems Eru appears to be instantiating the struggle within His own consciousness as a physically manifested world where his thoughts can contest with each other. There is perhaps more pantheism, Taoism, or elements of the Mandukya Upanishad than Abrahamic monotheism in this interpretation.
That's my interpretation anyway. Anyone honed in theology will probably disagree and offer valid arguments as to why I'm oversimplifying and way off the mark.
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The relationship between man and god in the Abrahamic religions is a contractual one, obey god and receive the following benefits...
There's none of that in Tolkien's Illuvatar. He is the light and source of creation but the creations are free to make their lives as they see fit. There's no contractual obligation to live life in some specified manner to get the goodies of the afterlife. I expect to Tolkien, the world would have all ended up like the Shire without Morgoth's mucking around.
The TV version of the Martian Chronicles had a quote that embodies what constitutes living well in Middle Earth:
'Life is it's own answer. Accept it and enjoy it, day by day. Live as well as possible. Expect no more. Destroy nothing. Humble nothing. Look for fault in nothing. Leave unsullied and untouched all that is beautiful. Hold that which lives - in all reverence. For life is given by the sovereign of our universe: given to be savored, to be luxuriated in, to be - - respected.'
The bad guys do none of that which is what sends them off to the darkness whenever their end comes. They get to that darkness because they have chosen to go that way just like Melkor did before the world was created. He sought the source of creation everwhere except where it truly lay, in Illuvatar. Morgoth didn't fall, he jumped. Same for the ones that followed him.
In a way, Eru seems to be trying to detoxify His thoughts by having the malignant ones such as Melkor expose themselves and be cast out. IIRC the legendarium imagined a final reckoning - the final battle (Dagor Dagorath) - where Eru gets to eliminate these aspects of Himself completely and so can proceed to build a better world. It seems to me that Men are His agents for doing this as they are not constrained by the patterns of the Music of the Ainur (Ainulindalë) and so can expand the potentiality of Eru. A final battle is just that, final. I don't think Tolkien was attracted to cyclical viewpoints given his Catholic beliefs. However, a bootstrapping, pantheistic deity that evolves from one bit through a potentially infinite number of iterations is something I could grok - at least in SF terms.
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How much violence is required when fighting 4 to 1? Seemed to me that, whilst violent indeed, when you’re outnumbered to that degree you’d be suicidal to pull any punches.
Nori’s my favourite so far. I want to know what she does which makes her so famous dwarves are being named after her 1,000s years later.
Halbrand seemed to enjoy breaking one guy's arm and ramming another's head into a wall a little too much. He's Sauron.
Nori is short for Elanor, which is an Elvish name for the sun-star flower. It was the name that Samwise Gamgee gave to his daughter. The name Nori also means "Peewee" or "Shortie" in Norse mythology, which is probably where Tolkien got the Dwarven name in The Hobbit.
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Nori is also the name of one of Thorin's companions in the Hobbit. Yeah, Ori, Nori, and all are names of Dwarves in the Eddas.
More thoughts on the etymology of the name "Halbrand". Using online dictionaries of Tolkien's invented languages seems to suggest one possible translation in Sindarin is a compound of "hall" meaning high, exalted or lofty and "brand" meaning steeple, towering or noble. Alternatively, the homophone "hall" can mean veiled, hidden, shadowed or shady. So, perhaps the name means "shady noble" instead of "high noble". However, as the main language of Middle-earth in the Second Age would be Sindarin, that could be a bit of a giveaway.
The show crafts a narrative around certain events in the Second Age. It does seem to be moving timelines around and condensing events that in the appendices happen over centuries. Otherwise, it's a very beautiful, very enjoyable show. It definitely channels the spirit of Tolkien IMO, but YMMV depending on who you ask
Eru has has one rule, which is basically, "Don't f**k with Eru."
The Valar have more of a "What we do is for your own good, feel free to ask for help but don't f**k with us"
The Numenorians declined because they started getting jealous of the immortality of the elves instead of being grateful for the enhanced lifespan not granted to other men.
Morgoth/Sauron lost their grace by being evil and fucking with the world, causing Morgoth to eventually be recaptured by the Valar and thrust out into the Great Void.
And Sauron got beat by a man the first time, and a pair of hobbits the second!
It's pretty clear in LOTR that the Valar help out a bit behind the scenes, masking their movements with "coincidence" ("Bilbo was meant to find the ring, and you were meant to carry it") and of course sending a few pairs of powered down Istari to give an assist.
Tolkien had in mind the greater powers being involved but hidden.
It could simply be not revealing himself until the opportune moment. After all, his power could be more limited due to his form.
Which is what the servant of the secret fire was an allusion to.
I've seen it suggested that Eru Himself was responsible for having Gollum lose his footing and fall into the fires of Mount Doom. (Somewhat like Nibbler aka I.C. Weiner causing Fry to fall into the cryogenic tube in Futurama?) However, I don't recall there is anything in the text of The Return of the King to confirm that.
I'm definitely a fan of the books and I'm quite enjoying the show. It's gorgeous and the actors are good. Some of the dialogue is a bit stilted, but it's already improved so I expect that to continue.
I'm leaning towards the first one too. He acted like someone who didn't want to fight, but when he did, I said to myself, "military". He seemed trained to end a fight in a quick and direct fashion. Sorry, I just don't think he's Sauron. I'm guessing he's a created-for-the-show character.
I *really* like that!
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