Spoilers Lord of the Rings TV series

[Takeru]

So there is one thing I've been a little confused about in the terms of the real world production of the show.
Is this being produced as an actual in continuity prequel to the Peter Jackson movies? I've seen a lot of people talking about Morfydd Clark becoming Cate Blanchett, but I was under the impression that this was its own completely separate thing, that wasn't supposed to be directly connected any other LOTR adaptations.

For legal reasons it's not a prequel to the PJ movies but in reality it kinda is because the events of those movies still happen in the future of the show's universe.

I'm not disputing that he was "active"; I'm disputing the value in showing us each and every detail.

Sauron's a major player, he's directly involved in several major events the show will definitely cover, there's no way to not show him doing stuff and manipulating people because during this age he actually did it in person.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Personally, I do not want an evil character who has mystique. I want to see them, know them, and completely disagree with them. No, "oh, it's a mysterious hooded figure with unknowable motivations."

Sauron is one of the least mysterious villains going. Galadriel talking with a disguised Sauron?

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The elves problem was that they were greedy for a world as unchanging and imperishable as themselves. They were easily manipulated by that longing in them.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Sauron in the Second Age is similar to a certain well-known politician and cult personality in ours - charming the coat off your back to wear for himself in the middle of a blizzard. Many were deceived but some, including Galadriel, immediately sussed that he was a wrong 'un. She seems to be taking longer to intuit Halbrand's underlying malevolence in this series if he is indeed Sauron in disguise.

 

[Takeru]

Sauron in the Second Age is similar to a certain well-known politician and cult personality in ours - charming the coat off your back to wear for himself in the middle of a blizzard. Many were deceived but some, including Galadriel, immediately sussed that he was a wrong 'un. She seems to be taking longer to intuit Halbrand's underlying malevolence in this series if he is indeed Sauron in disguise.

Do we know how quick Galadriel actually was doing that? By elven standards it would probably considered to be immediately even if it took her a year or two so the show has some wiggle room.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Gil-galad also distrusted Annatar immediately. As you say, there's wiggle room to have this distrust develop a little more slowly as he and Galadriel realise there's something off. Celebrimbor drank deeply of the Sauron Kool-Aid but later realised his mistake, of course. Having Halbrand suddenly become a master at forging objects imbued with magic seems doubtful, but I assume he's first going to hone his craft in Númenor and then journey to Eregion.

It seems unlikely that Galadriel will accompany Halbrand all the while he's tooling about with smithing. She's desperate to get back to Middle-earth. To her, he's just some guy she met in her travels. I can't see her interrupting her quest just because she thinks (wrongly) that he might be useful as an ally.

Halbrand's actions so far seem geared toward his own agenda. He is a manipulative and dishonest dickwad though, so even if he isn't Sauron in disguise after all, his path is likely toward Sauron's side.

 

[Orphalesion]

The elves problem was that they were greedy for a world as unchanging and imperishable as themselves. They were easily manipulated by that longing in them.

Just like humans have the problem that they are greedy for physical immortality and that's how Sauron manipulated them.
All the Dwarves wanted was more gold and create and collect more awesome things, which is what they got out of the rings, and why they were so difficult to manipulate by Sauron.
That's actually one of the things about Middle Earth that don't make that much sense to me. Mortality is the defining characteristic of humanity from their creation on, and an inevitable death not caused by being killed or abandoning your body voluntarily with the associated fairly rapid ageing process was a punishment because the first humans started worshipping Morgoth and performed human sacrifices in his honour (iirc)
However...the Dwarves seem just as mortal and, even though their ageing process is slower it also leads to an inevitable death of old age. Even more, while mortality and an exit beyond EA is explicitly called the gift of humanity, nobody is quite sure what happens to Dwarves after they die (even the idea that some of their important chieftains are re-born among their number is just a cultural belief among the Dwarves without concrete proof or divine assurance).
Yet the Dwarves never seem to mind this. They don't look to extend their lives or attain physical immortality. They just seem fine with it.

They're like: "Yeah there's a chance I completely cease to exist in 30 years or so, but look at this neat jewelled necklace I made!"

 

[Gov Kodos]

Just like humans have the problem that they are greedy for physical immortality and that's how Sauron manipulated them.
All the Dwarves wanted was more gold and create and collect more awesome things, which is what they got out of the rings, and why they were so difficult to manipulate by Sauron.
That's actually one of the things about Middle Earth that don't make that much sense to me. Mortality is the defining characteristic of humanity from their creation on, and an inevitable death not caused by being killed or abandoning your body voluntarily with the associated fairly rapid ageing process was a punishment because the first humans started worshipping Morgoth and performed human sacrifices in his honour (iirc)
However...the Dwarves seem just as mortal and, even though their ageing process is slower it also leads to an inevitable death of old age. Even more, while mortality and an exit beyond EA is explicitly called the gift of humanity, nobody is quite sure what happens to Dwarves after they die (even the idea that some of their important chieftains are re-born among their number is just a cultural belief among the Dwarves without concrete proof or divine assurance).
Yet the Dwarves never seem to mind this. They don't look to extend their lives or attain physical immortality. They just seem fine with it.

They're like: "Yeah there's a chance I completely cease to exist in 30 years or so, but look at this neat jewelled necklace I made!"

In the Sil. the Dwarves say Aule assured them a place in the Halls of Mandos and that they will work with him on the building of the next world. And as Illuvatar told Aule the Dwarves would have a place in the music I'd be inclined to agree with the Dwarven view.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

A strange thing about Middle-earth is that there doesn't seem to be a formal, organised worship or cult of Eru Ilúvatar.

In letter 142 from 1953, Tolkien wrote:

The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like ‘religion’, to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.

Eru was revered but not formally worshipped. In letter 153 from 1954, Tolkien states:

But there was no temple in Númenor (until Sauron introduced the cult of Morgoth). The top of the Mountain, the Meneltarma or Pillar of Heaven, was dedicated to Eru, the One, and there at any time privately, and at certain times publicly, God was invoked, praised, and adored: an imitation of the Valar and the Mountain of Aman. But Numenor fell and was destroyed and the Mountain engulfed, and there was no substitute. Among the exiles, remnants of the Faithful who had not adopted the false religion nor taken part in the rebellion, religion as divine worship (though perhaps not as philosophy and metaphysics) seems to have played a small part; though a glimpse of it is caught in Faramir’s remark on ‘grace at meat’.

The Elves have some religious-like practices such as singing hymns to Elbereth and making pilgrimages to the Palantir of Elostirion. However, Tolkien did not seem to imply anything organised with a priesthood apart from the cult of Morgoth. I expect this is because many Elves had direct experience of interacting with Maiar and even Valar, who did not demand grovelling obeisance.

 

[Jedman67]

I don't think Halbarand is Sauron, it seems too "petty". I like the theory though

Sauron very much involves himself directly in events of the Second Age; why he doesn't do the same in the Third Age should (hopefully) be explained in the show.

I just assumed this lady was Sauron. Although he could shapeshift at will.

RoP is not a "prequel" to the Peter Jackson films. The only connection is that it takes place in the same fictional universe, some three thousand or so years before the LotR (in book lore, it would be closer to 6,000)

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I don't think Halbarand is Sauron, it seems too "petty". I like the theory though

I just assumed this guy was Sauron. Although he could shapeshift at will.

RoP is not a "prequel" to the Peter Jackson films. The only connection is that it takes place in the same fictional universe, some three thousand or so years before the LotR (in book lore, it would be closer to 6,000)

Yeah, 4,840 years before or thereabouts. I believe that "guy" is a female actor from New Zealand, whose name I've forgotten.

ETA: Her name is Bridie Sisson.

 

[Orphalesion]

In the Sil. the Dwarves say Aule assured them a place in the Halls of Mandos and that they will work with him on the building of the next world. And as Illuvatar told Aule the Dwarves would have a place in the music I'd be inclined to agree with the Dwarven view.

They say they believe so, while some lore masters of the Elves claim Dwarf souls return to the Earth and become precious minerals or metals.
It's just weird to me that the Dwarves seem to be able to be chill on a vague belief, while humans cling to life even though their "gift" of leaving the world after death comes from the highest source.
Of course its possible that their dread is a result of their sinfall.

 

[fireproof78]

Sauron is one of the least mysterious villains going. Galadriel talking with a disguised Sauron?

Which is why making him a mystery in the Rings of Power is so odd to me. I prefer more how he went about his plan than just a "Whodunit" type question.

Just like humans have the problem that they are greedy for physical immortality and that's how Sauron manipulated them.
All the Dwarves wanted was more gold and create and collect more awesome things, which is what they got out of the rings, and why they were so difficult to manipulate by Sauron.
That's actually one of the things about Middle Earth that don't make that much sense to me. Mortality is the defining characteristic of humanity from their creation on, and an inevitable death not caused by being killed or abandoning your body voluntarily with the associated fairly rapid ageing process was a punishment because the first humans started worshipping Morgoth and performed human sacrifices in his honour (iirc)
However...the Dwarves seem just as mortal and, even though their ageing process is slower it also leads to an inevitable death of old age. Even more, while mortality and an exit beyond EA is explicitly called the gift of humanity, nobody is quite sure what happens to Dwarves after they die (even the idea that some of their important chieftains are re-born among their number is just a cultural belief among the Dwarves without concrete proof or divine assurance).
Yet the Dwarves never seem to mind this. They don't look to extend their lives or attain physical immortality. They just seem fine with it.

They're like: "Yeah there's a chance I completely cease to exist in 30 years or so, but look at this neat jewelled necklace I made!"

I think it comes down to what each race wants to master. The Dwarves want to master the Earth and can demonstrate it quite well. Mankind wants to master their fate and what happens to them before and after death. If they decide to die in the name of a greater cause then that is more assuring to them. Or establishing great monuments, like what the men of Gondor did in creating great tombs and memorials. But, ultimately, they want the power to shape their fate, their mortality, and look with jealousy at the Elves for their gifts.

 

[Gov Kodos]

They say they believe so, while some lore masters of the Elves claim Dwarf souls return to the Earth and become precious minerals or metals.
It's just weird to me that the Dwarves seem to be able to be chill on a vague belief, while humans cling to life even though their "gift" of leaving the world after death comes from the highest source.
Of course its possible that their dread is a result of their sinfall.

Morgoth corrupted humanity's understanding of Illuvatar's gift. No sin or fall involved. I'm satisfied with Illuvatar and Aule's understanding about the Dwarves. I don't see Tolkien making the Dwarves without souls and an afterlife so I think it's a safe bet they are hanging with the children of Illuvatar after the world is mended. He did call the Dwarves his adopted children.

 

[Orphalesion]

Morgoth corrupted humanity's understanding of Illuvatar's gift. No sin or fall involved.

Except that there was a sinfall in Tolkien's mythos, as detailed in that text in Morgoth's Ring where Finrod talks with that human "wisewoman" among all sort of metaphysical topics; Morgoth's beguiled the first humans to worship him instead of Eru and as a punishment Eru shortened the lifespan of humans and the "Earth turning against them" and all that.
It's the vague "shadow" the Edain are fleeing from in the Silmarillion.

 

[Jedman67]

Except that there was a sinfall in Tolkien's mythos, as detailed in that text in Morgoth's Ring where Finrod talks with that human "wisewoman" among all sort of metaphysical topics; Morgoth's beguiled the first humans to worship him instead of Eru and as a punishment Eru shortened the lifespan of humans and the "Earth turning against them" and all that.
It's the vague "shadow" the Edain are fleeing from in the Silmarillion.

The Edain were given the "gift" of mortality. The Numenorians were given an extended lifespan of 300+ years (close to 500 for the line of Elros) better health, etc as a gift for fighting Morgoth.
Those that began to envy immortality (and the elves for having it) grew old and frail faster than their predecessors. Part of the Gift of Illuvatar allowed those of Numenorian descent to "give back their life" when they felt their time had come, while those who did not ended up dying with dementia.

 

[Orphalesion]

The Edain were given the "gift" of mortality. The Numenorians were given an extended lifespan of 300+ years (close to 500 for the line of Elros) better health, etc as a gift for fighting Morgoth.
Those that began to envy immortality (and the elves for having it) grew old and frail faster than their predecessors. Part of the Gift of Illuvatar allowed those of Numenorian descent to "give back their life" when they felt their time had come, while those who did not ended up dying with dementia.

Sorry, I don't quite get what that has to do with what I wrote?

 

[Gov Kodos]

Except that there was a sinfall in Tolkien's mythos, as detailed in that text in Morgoth's Ring where Finrod talks with that human "wisewoman" among all sort of metaphysical topics; Morgoth's beguiled the first humans to worship him instead of Eru and as a punishment Eru shortened the lifespan of humans and the "Earth turning against them" and all that.
It's the vague "shadow" the Edain are fleeing from in the Silmarillion.

No, there's no sin in Tolkien's Middle Earth. None. Tolkien did not repackage Catholicism.

 

[fireproof78]

No, there's no sin in Tolkien's Middle Earth. None. Tolkien did not repackage Catholicism.

Of course he didn't repackage it, but he didn't shy away from the predominately Catholic themes within his work which governed his life. He would not call it sin, but often referred to it as a "fall" and the efforts to redeem the creation. In terms of his mythology Mankind's fall is not a part of the story.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Of course he didn't repackage it, but he didn't shy away from the predominately Catholic themes within his work which governed his life. He would not call it sin, but often referred to it as a "fall" and the efforts to redeem the creation. In terms of his mythology Mankind's fall is not a part of the story.

Themes, not analogies.

 

[fireproof78]

Themes, not analogies.

Yes, I believe that's what I said, and am quite aware of Tolkien's distaste for allegory. That it isn't a direct analog doesn't make it less relevant to Tolkien's thought process. Just reading his letter's in brief illustrates that.