Spoilers Lord of the Rings TV series

[Skywalker]

I do remember reading reports that Amazon did later acquire limited rights to some stuff in The Silmarillion as well as Unfinished Tales (presumably stuff that came up during the writing process, but I dunno), so it'll be interesting to see what elements make their way into the show.

 

[kirk55555]

Its weird how fragmented the rights are. You'd think it would be, maybe, three different groups of rights: The Hobbit, Trilogy, and Silmarillion/Extended Work. You might be able to justify spinning off a few extra stories as their own rights, but once you get into things like Galadriel's family members it feels odd to not include them in the rights. It feels like they're licensing things by the character/story beat, which feels like a weird way of doing things.

Its nice to see that the people making the show seem to know and seemingly care a bit the stuff they're missing, they definitely referenced Galadriel's brothers "canon" death by werewolves with the marks on his body and the drowned section during the battle scene is probably a reference to the sinking of part of Middle Earth (the tribute trees for dead elves also referenced several other characters that I'm 99% sure they don't have the rights to). So they're doing the best they probably can working within their rights limitations, while also putting in references they can get away with to stuff they can't explicitly use.

 

[Booji]

I do remember reading reports that Amazon did later acquire limited rights to some stuff in The Silmarillion as well as Unfinished Tales (presumably stuff that came up during the writing process, but I dunno), so it'll be interesting to see what elements make their way into the show.

I remember reading that too, but I just did a search and it seems that news came from a theonering.net spy report in July 2021. I couldn't find any other site that corroborates what they said.

 

[Skywalker]

I remember reading that too, but I just did a search and it seems that news came from a theonering.net spy report in July 2021. I couldn't find any other site that corroborates what they said.

Ah, fair enough. I could have sworn I saw it reported in more than one place so I didn't think to double-check.

Oh well!

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I keep seeing people mention in this thread that they thought they read somewhere that was the case but then did a search and couldn't find anything.

I'd love it to be true but I still haven't seen anything beyond hearsay.

 

[Skywalker]

I keep seeing people mention in this thread that they thought they read somewhere that was the case but then did a search and couldn't find anything.

I'd love it to be true but I still haven't seen anything beyond hearsay.

Yeah. I definitely remember reading it, but it must have been farther back than I realized, and was probably just bunk. I don't know why I thought I saw it in multiple places.

 

[fireproof78]

Its weird how fragmented the rights are.

Maybe cost.

 

[saddestmoon]

Yeah. I definitely remember reading it, but it must have been farther back than I realized, and was probably just bunk. I don't know why I thought I saw it in multiple places.

I also recall the additional rights discussion / announcement made - perhaps on TheOneRing.net? I feel like Tom Shippley was also mentioned in the same article…

[saddestmoon checks memory-Banks]

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Who?

The equally racist depiction of the Irish from Star Trek.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Maybe cost.

I could be wrong but isn't it that when the Jackson movies were being made Miramax only bought rights to what they needed and that is what Amazon got their hands on.
Tolkien estate still owns the rest.

 

[Moist_Cake]

Maybe cost.

Close. Profit.

 

[Moist_Cake]

I could be wrong but isn't it that when the Jackson movies were being made Miramax only bought rights to what they needed and that is what Amazon got their hands on.
Tolkien estate still owns the rest.

Tolkien Estates owns it all. The just give permission for some to use the works from time to time.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

The Embracer Group acquired Middle-earth Enterprises recently from the Saul Zaentz Company. This deal gives Embracer the rights to movies, video games, board games, merchandising, theme parks and stage productions relating to Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit. It seems it doesn't include TV adaptation rights. I don't think the Tolkien Estate get anything from the deal apart from royalties but I might be wrong.

Embracer Group buys rights to 'Lord of the Rings' films, other Tolkien intellectual property (cnbc.com)

I believe the Tolkien Estate still owns the IP for Tolkien's literary works other than The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit. Again, I might be wrong.

 

[fireproof78]

I could be wrong but isn't it that when the Jackson movies were being made Miramax only bought rights to what they needed and that is what Amazon got their hands on.
Tolkien estate still owns the rest.

Sure. And I absolutely good be wrong but the rights might be structured in such a way that accessing more of the works costs more. But, pure speculation.

 

[Jedman67]

The reason why Ar-Pharazôn attacked Valinor was his wish to acquire the same assuredness of eventual eternal life possessed by the Elves. A mere several hundred years of corporeal existence without knowing for certain what would happen thereafter was unsatisfactory to him after Sauron had placed such thoughts in his head.

Unlike Elves, Men have free will and are not constrained to the paths permitted by the Music of the Ainur. That is the reason why their destinations after physical death differ. Eru's plan is for Men to add unique elements to the Second Music that he himself could not envisage - the First Music of the Ainur effectively being formed from the mingling of separate fragments of his own consciousness. In a way Men are autonomous, unconstrained entities that allow Eru to expand the bounds of his experience. (Put like that, it sounds a bit like the Matrix - although humans are being used as computation engines for exploring what is possible outside the bounds of a supreme being's imagination rather than as mere batteries.)

That's how I interpret the legendarium's theosophy anyway. I might well be incorrect.

The elves are assured of eventual ressurection in like 20,000 years or a million years, and they can die.
Although I think Tolkien himself was constantly revising his interpretation of the end of times.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

The elves are assured of eventual ressurection in like 20,000 years or a million years, and they can die.
Although I think Tolkien himself was constantly revising his interpretation of the end of times.

Yep, all the Elves are resurrected if not already alive after the Dagor Dagorath so they can take part in the Second Music of the Ainur.

 

[JD]

What happened to the Elves and others who went to Valinor at the end of LOTR? If LOTR were really a forgotten history of our world from thousands of years ago, then would they still be alive hidden away in Valinor today?

 

[fireproof78]

What happened to the Elves and others who went to Valinor at the end of LOTR? If LOTR were really a forgotten history of our world from thousands of years ago, then would they still be alive hidden away in Valinor today?

That was part of Tolkien's idea. Valinor was removed from the circle of the physical world, so only the Elves were allowed, unless granted special dispensation. like Gimli, and Frodo and Bildo, though they will not live forever. Tolkien speculated that Elves who remained in Middle Earth would fade and become the stuff of legends, or like the smaller fairies of folklore.

 

[saddestmoon]

What I also find fascinating about the races of Middle-earth and Arda as a whole, is that, by and large, the destinies of Dwarves, and Elves (respectively) are known to their own races, however the destiny of ‘Man’ is unknown to all, except Eru - and the suggestion is that ‘Mankind’ plays a crucial part in the end chapter of Arda’s story - during the Third Age.

I think that was mentioned in The Unfinished Tales… ?

edit: pulled quickly from LOTRs Fandom (excerpt):

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Gift_of_Men

Ilúvatar understood that Men would not always use this gift of freedom in harmony with the world, and would stray often. But he knew that in their time, men would continue to order their lives within Arda and by their "operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and the smallest" (The Silmarillion). Thus Men would become the implements by which Ilúvatar's plans for Arda will be realized in the ages to come.

The Gift, as originally bequeathed, was not something that Men feared. Though they loved their lives within Arda, they relinquished their spirits gracefully, almost gladly, and seemed to pass into a peaceful sleep, never to wake again in this life. But their souls go to a place unknown to the wisest of Elves or even the Valar.

However, it is written that when the Second Music of the Ainur is played, after the Dagor Dagorath, the spirits of Men shall be included in this even greater theme, when all of the players will know and understand their part and its relation to the whole, and be tributary to its beauty and glory.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I'm split on this episode. While I enjoyed the broader storytelling of the three threads of this episode, I quickly got tired of the melodramatic slow-motion sequencing that occurred during the Númenór and Orc enslavement of Elves stories. Reminded me far too much of Zack Snyder and that's never a good thing.

I also wasn't a big fan of the level of snobbery seen with both the Númenóreans and the Harfoots. While I get there 's obviously a painful history between the Númenóreans and Elves, you'd think if they didn't like Galadriel so much they just give her a small boat as quickly as possible and be done with it instead of all of the handwringing over whatever. As for the Harfoots, it was weird that their nomad ways developed such a faith that easily accepted the idea of leaving people behind when there were clearly plenty of able bodies who could help those in need with pulling carts.

As for the stories themselves, we finally meet Númenór in all of its beauty and splendor before its destined corruption and decay. Along with the kingdom are some familiar character such as Elendil, Isildur, and Pharazôn, while name-checking Elros (who apparently is still alive, which is weird...). Galadriel figured out the nature of the symbol she discovered far sooner than I expected but I'm not surprised that it turned out to be a mini-map of Mordor itself. Question now is how long will she be stuck on Númenór before she's able to do anything with this knowledge.

I'm relieved that Halbrand doesn't appear to be Sauron after all (unless it's part of a longer con) and instead is some lost destined king in rags (sounds familiar), although since the character was created for the show, anything is possible. Since my detailed knowledge of The Silmarillion and the like is limited, I don't know if the idea of a king who united the Southlands in the past with the possibility of that happening again is a creation of the show or not.

Likewise, The Stranger also doesn't appear to be Sauron as his more kindly nature has emerged and it feels like any anger he had before was more born out of frustration and confusion than malevolence. I'm still going with my wild theory that he's Beorn instead of possibly Alatar or Pallando, even if ithe latter seems more likely.