Spoilers Lord of the Rings TV series

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Yeah, it's all entertainment - even the original books - it's not holy writ. The dialogue and pacing could do with some improvement in what I've seen of this show so far but the rest seems just fine. Four stars.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Well, yeah. They pretty much said that this wasn't going to be a "history" lesson but a "dramatization." If I want all the details of the history I've got The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales to get my fix.

Also The Fall of Númenor is due to be published in November.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

They're pushing hard to make you think the Stranger is either Sauron or Gandalf (or even Saruman or Radagast), but those seem to be a bit on-the-nose, so I'm gonna swing for the fences and say it's gonna be one of the previously unseen Blue Wizards, Alatar or Pallando.

The time that the Blue Wizards arrived in Middle-earth is uncertain. In Unfinished Tales, Tolkien wrote that the five Istari came to Middle-earth together in TA 1000. However, in The Peoples of Middle-earth, they are said to have arrived in the Second Age, around the year SA 1600, the time of the forging of the One Ring. Their mission was directed at weakening Sauron's forces in the eastern and southern parts of Middle-earth, whereas the other Istari were focused on the west.

"I think that they went as emissaries to distant regions, east and south... Missionaries to enemy occupied lands as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron."
—J.R.R. Tolkien
https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Blue_Wizards

The bolded parts all fit with the general (compressed) timeline and regional setting of the series and where Sauron's forces are gathering.

When Gandalf returned from death in The Two Towers, he experienced a less severe but similar disorientation and memory loss, so that might be the way Istari arrive in Middle-Earth.

He can communicate with and control insects, like Gandalf did atop Orthanc and in the Battle of the Black Gate, and presumably all wizards can do. Although the fact that the fireflies all died immediately after he used them is very Sauron-ish.

When he picked up the stick to draw symbols in the ground he was unintentionally using it like a wizard's staff and hurt Nori's father some distance away.

He did the raised "drown out all other sounds but my own voice" thing wizards can do.

Points in comparison to Sauron is that he arrived in flames and the flames burned cold (not hurting Nori), just like how the torches in the ancient ice fortress in Forodwaith burned cold because Sauron had been present there. But maybe that's just a general Maiar trait shared by Wizards and Sauron.

 

[StarMan]

For what it's worth - I'm a big fan of Jackson's original trilogy; haven't read the books and know jack about the appendices / Silmarillion . Watched with mother and partner (both fans of the movies) with neutral expectations. I think we all drew similar conclusions.

Visuals - impressive. Score - ditto. Story - hmm. Some yes, some meh.
Dialogue - shoot me.

There's something missing. The way Jackson wove Tolkien's formal prose into film has not been replicated here. It feels stilted and laboured, rather than effortless. It lacks charm - save for Lenny Henry and Nori the Harfoot.

I would say out of the story threads introduced so far, my interest from most to least would be:

- Harfoots and Gandalf (or whoever the magic guy that talks to insects is).
- Elf chap, village woman & son.
- Bit of a gap, then Galadriel. Need to see a bit of sparkle here at some stage considering she's the lynchpin to this story.
- And finally Elrond and Dwarves. Cheesy and uninteresting.

The Elves in contrast to the rougher elements of Middle Earth worked in the movies; as central players front and centre - doesn't seem so appealing. All a bit dry and stuffy.

There's potential I guess. It's been reported that Bezos wanted his own Game of Thrones. Based on first impressions, I don't think there's much chance of this approaching GoT stratospheric pop culture status.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I watched both episodes and I love everything I've seen so far (with one small exception). I especially loved the second episode when we finally get to see Khazad-dûm in its full glory and I cannot wait to see more of it throughout the series.

Nori and Bronwyn have quickly become my favorite characters of the series, even among the known characters. I adore Nori's carefree nature wrapped in curiosity and a hunger to push beyond her cultural restraints. She's cut from the same cloth as Frodo and, as much as he would hate to admit, Bilbo, and I look forward in seeing where her journey goes. I love Bronwyn's fierce determination matched with gentle tenderness she has for both Theo and Arondir. Even though it was heavily telegraphed, I particularly enjoyed how she earned her "Here's your damn proof, let's go already!" moment.

Among the known characters Durin IV and, of course, Galadriel stand out well. I empathized with Durin's anger and hurt by Elrond's absence, one that perhaps only occurred because of Elrond's thoughtlessness on how he perceives time as opposed to Durin. That thoughtlessness aside, I did appreciate how Elrond yielded during Sigin-tarâg sooner than he needed to in order to maintain Durin's pride. I'm still cautious about Galadriel's warrior status but I do like how it's more about her quest to find proof of what she knows is to be true about Sauron's continued existence than her simply being a straight-up fighter. That said, I wasn't fond of seeing Galadriel rescued by Halbrand, which felt completely unnecessary.

As for The Stranger, I have a longshot thought that's probably not true, an idea that was first sparked by the last trailer which briefly showed him bellowing into the forest: Beorn. The wildness and smoldering anger along with his apparent connection with nature in some manner fuels my speculation that it could be him, although admittedly the dying fireflies at the end goes against that idea. Chances are he's probably Sauron but I'm still not keen on that idea, nor him being a wizard which his mutterings to the fireflies heavily implied.

Overall, I've been swept away by the sheer beauty of worldbuilding (with more to come with at least Númenor!), particularly Khazad-dûm and Eregion. This show's version of Middle-earth both feels like it belongs within the realms we saw in Peter Jackson's films while standing on its own, separated by a whole age. Likewise, Bear McCreary echoes Howard Shore's work beautifully while creating its own distinctive leitmotifs.

I'm not nearly as knowledgeable with the Second Age as I am the Third, but so far it feels like the show has done a great job in honoring Tolkien's work and I'm very curious to see how the season progresses.

 

[mswood]

Ah, ok, I misheard the line. They did get it correct in that case. I need to watch it with subtitles. I suspect Galadriel is not married and a mother as she would not have agreed to go to Valinor without her family. She's also Gil-galad's great aunt as I mentioned.

Also the denigration of Elrond as not being noble enough is ridiculous. He's Eärendil and Elwing's son FFS. I assume it might be intended to represent some sort of prejudice against the doubly half-elven, which would be total bollocks. Elrond would be Galadriel's son-in-law later on but probably not in this show as it only covers the Second Age.

Galadriel did in fact go to Valinor without her family (or at the very least without her husband and grandchildren). Celebron spent several years in Lothlorien after Galadriel left before he then went to live in Imaldris. The daughter had centuries earlier gone to across the sea. With Celeborn we know he lived with his grandsons in Riverdall, and eventually went across the sea, but we have no knowledge of how long he stayed. Its just referenced that when he left the last living memories of the Elder days left with him. Hinting very strongly that he was the last living Elf who lived through part of the Elder days to depart middle Earth. We never find out if his grandchildren ever made the journey. But again it gives evidence that Celeborn and Galadriel could be parted for many years at time. We just don't know if years means singular, decades, or centuries at a time. There story is not giving real depth in that regard.

On the issue of Elrond there could be two issues here.

The first concerns the term Elf Lord. The question is usage of language. Is Elrond a Elf lord at this time? On the show does the term Lord represent holding of land / a kingdom. Or does it represent just being of certain bloodlines. If bloodlines then Elrond bloodline should grant him that title. If its based on holding land, then this is before the he becomes a ruler of a kingdom.

Now it also could be (within the universe of this tv show) a reference to being a half elf, if they wish. But nothing was stated outright that this had to. be the case.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Who wants to place bets on Theo being the the future King of Angmar (and possibly of the Witchy persuasion)?

Damn, I didn't think of that but that would be a heartbreaking fate.

 

[crookeddy]

IMDb ratings unlocked, and the show is currently at 6.1. Does this put future seasons in danger?

 

[Greylock Crescent]

IMDb ratings unlocked, and the show is currently at 6.1. Does this put future seasons in danger?

Why should it? Amazon had much better metrics to gauge the show’s success or lack thereof.

 

[Jedi Marso]

On the issue of Elrond there could be two issues here.

The first concerns the term Elf Lord. The question is usage of language. Is Elrond a Elf lord at this time? On the show does the term Lord represent holding of land / a kingdom. Or does it represent just being of certain bloodlines. If bloodlines then Elrond bloodline should grant him that title. If its based on holding land, then this is before the he becomes a ruler of a kingdom.

In canon, at about the time of this show, Elrond would be a captain of Gil-Galad, and later his herald during the Last Alliance at the end of the S.A. He was always an elf-lord due to his heritage- his father was Earandil the Mariner. As Peredhil (Half-elven), his parents (Earandil and Elwing) as well as his brother Elros were given the choice between choosing the fate of the elves or of men. Elrond and his parents all chose to be counted among the elves; his brother Elros chose his human lineage, becoming Elros Tar-Minyotaur and founding the line of Numenorean kings, from whom Aragorn eventually descended.

The choice given to the Peredhil was also extended to Elrond's offspring- we all know how that ended for Arwen, who chose mortality to be with Aragorn.

Now it also could be (within the universe of this tv show) a reference to being a half elf, if they wish. But nothing was stated outright that this had to. be the case.

Even in the show (so far) they have said nothing about Elrond's parentage or lineage, so his heritage hasn't been addressed at all. As of now, they've hacked Galadriel's canon heritage to pieces.

 

[FPAlpha]

They're pushing hard to make you think the Stranger is either Sauron or Gandalf (or even Saruman or Radagast), but those seem to be a bit on-the-nose, so I'm gonna swing for the fences and say it's gonna be one of the previously unseen Blue Wizards, Alatar or Pallando.

The time that the Blue Wizards arrived in Middle-earth is uncertain. In Unfinished Tales, Tolkien wrote that the five Istari came to Middle-earth together in TA 1000. However, in The Peoples of Middle-earth, they are said to have arrived in the Second Age, around the year SA 1600, the time of the forging of the One Ring. Their mission was directed at weakening Sauron's forces in the eastern and southern parts of Middle-earth, whereas the other Istari were focused on the west.

"I think that they went as emissaries to distant regions, east and south... Missionaries to enemy occupied lands as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron."
—J.R.R. Tolkien
https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Blue_Wizards

The bolded parts all fit with the general (compressed) timeline and regional setting of the series and where Sauron's forces are gathering.

When Gandalf returned from death in The Two Towers, he experienced a less severe but similar disorientation and memory loss, so that might be the way Istari arrive in Middle-Earth.

He can communicate with and control insects, like Gandalf did atop Orthanc and in the Battle of the Black Gate, and presumably all wizards can do. Although the fact that the fireflies all died immediately after he used them is very Sauron-ish.

When he picked up the stick to draw symbols in the ground he was unintentionally using it like a wizard's staff and hurt Nori's father some distance away.

He did the raised "drown out all other sounds but my own voice" thing wizards can do.

Points in comparison to Sauron is that he arrived in flames and the flames burned cold (not hurting Nori), just like how the torches in the ancient ice fortress in Forodwaith burned cold because Sauron had been present there. But maybe that's just a general Maiar trait shared by Wizards and Sauron.

The Stranger being Sauron or Gandalf would be a conflict with established lore both book and even in the show as they already show Sauron be in Middle Earth by the time the show starts and Gandalf was sent at the beginning of the 3rd Age to investigate the possible return of Sauron - unless the show is willing to break established lore ( of which only a fraction of the viewers would actually notice) i think it'll be a previously unknown Maiar or perhaps one that is mentioned once by Tolkien somewhere.

Would be nice if it were a completely new character with his own motivations and backstory but for now my money is on a Maiar to fulfill the same role as Gandalf.

I watched both episodes and I love everything I've seen so far (with one small exception). I especially loved the second episode when we finally get to see Khazad-dûm in its full glory and I cannot wait to see more of it throughout the series.

Nori and Bronwyn have quickly become my favorite characters of the series, even among the known characters. I adore Nori's carefree nature wrapped in curiosity and a hunger to push beyond her cultural restraints. She's cut from the same cloth as Frodo and, as much as he would hate to admit, Bilbo, and I look forward in seeing where her journey goes. I love Bronwyn's fierce determination matched with gentle tenderness she has for both Theo and Arondir. Even though it was heavily telegraphed, I particularly enjoyed how she earned her "Here's your damn proof, let's go already!" moment.

Among the known characters Durin IV and, of course, Galadriel stand out well. I empathized with Durin's anger and hurt by Elrond's absence, one that perhaps only occurred because of Elrond's thoughtlessness on how he perceives time as opposed to Durin. That thoughtlessness aside, I did appreciate how Elrond yielded during Sigin-tarâg sooner than he needed to in order to maintain Durin's pride. I'm still cautious about Galadriel's warrior status but I do like how it's more about her quest to find proof of what she knows is to be true about Sauron's continued existence than her simply being a straight-up fighter. That said, I wasn't fond of seeing Galadriel rescued by Halbrand, which felt completely unnecessary.

As for The Stranger, I have a longshot thought that's probably not true, an idea that was first sparked by the last trailer which briefly showed him bellowing into the forest: Beorn. The wildness and smoldering anger along with his apparent connection with nature in some manner fuels my speculation that it could be him, although admittedly the dying fireflies at the end goes against that idea. Chances are he's probably Sauron but I'm still not keen on that idea, nor him being a wizard which his mutterings to the fireflies heavily implied.

Overall, I've been swept away by the sheer beauty of worldbuilding (with more to come with at least Númenor!), particularly Khazad-dûm and Eregion. This show's version of Middle-earth both feels like it belongs within the realms we saw in Peter Jackson's films while standing on its own, separated by a whole age. Likewise, Bear McCreary echoes Howard Shore's work beautifully while creating its own distinctive leitmotifs.

I'm not nearly as knowledgeable with the Second Age as I am the Third, but so far it feels like the show has done a great job in honoring Tolkien's work and I'm very curious to see how the season progresses.

That friendship between Elrond and Durin was the highlight of the episode - both have their issues but their friendship is strong. You could see and feel the hurt of Durin and the shock on Elrond when he realizes he unwittingly hurt his friends feelings and missed key events in his life. But even then it was not all lost as evidenced by the tree Durin planed and stubbornly refused to let wither - they just needed someone to knock some sense into their ( mostly Durin's) head, enter his wife

One thing i also liked is how the pre-Hobbits are shown as more "primitive" than the Hobbits they will become. The Hobbits have quite sophisticated homes, they wear suits and so on while these are much rougher in appearance and life style so we can clearly see some developments are still about to happen. Nice touch.

Why should it? Amazon had much better metrics to gauge the show’s success or lack thereof.

Exactly why scoring systems on various sites mean mostly squat - streaming services base their decisions mostly on actual numbers. Those may get affected by reviews but if something is actually good word of mouth will spread and people will watch.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Galadriel did in fact go to Valinor without her family (or at the very least without her husband and grandchildren).

Yes, but that was in the Third Age after Celebrian had already departed and she knew Celeborn would eventually follow. Of course, Celebrian did leave Elrond, Arwen, and her sons in Middle-earth but she was broken in mind and spirit after being tortured by orcs. Returning to Valinor was really her only choice.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

That black elf must have found the best barbershop in Middle Earth.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Even in the show (so far) they have said nothing about Elrond's parentage or lineage, so his heritage hasn't been addressed at all. As of now, they've hacked Galadriel's canon heritage to pieces.

Yeah, Galadriel was born 219 years before her great-nephew Gil-galad.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

The Stranger being Sauron or Gandalf would be a conflict with established lore both book and even in the show as they already show Sauron be in Middle Earth by the time the show starts and Gandalf was sent at the beginning of the 3rd Age to investigate the possible return of Sauron - unless the show is willing to break established lore ( of which only a fraction of the viewers would actually notice) i think it'll be a previously unknown Maiar or perhaps one that is mentioned once by Tolkien somewhere.

Would be nice if it were a completely new character with his own motivations and backstory but for now my money is on a Maiar to fulfill the same role as Gandalf.

I was arguing in favor of it being one of the Blue Wizards, Alatar or Pallando, not Gandalf or Sauron. You know, the whole middle section of my post. I just provided counterarguments to my own points, as well.

And the show has already made extensive changes to the timeline (and the showrunners said there will be more) in order to tell a coherent story without having to have a new set of characters each episode (with the exception of the elves) as events jump centuries into the future. They've compressed time and juxtaposed certain events in order to allow most of the main cast of characters to remain throughout.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

If The Stranger isn’t Sauron ora new character connected to Sauron in some way then I’ll be sorely disappointed in (what would then be) the over the top fake out from the imagery of his arrival. Along with the various “bad omen” consequences of his presence so far.

Otherwise, I find the notion that he is one of The Blues quite interesting. Certainly I’d rather that be the case than him being Gandalf or Radagast or Saruman. That would give us a new character. And, I suppose, he could begin as having some connection to Sauron before choosing to work against him.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, it's all entertainment - even the original books - it's not holy writ. The dialogue and pacing could do with some improvement in what I've seen of this show so far but the rest seems just fine. Four stars.

Indeed. My wife thoroughly enjoyed it and I found Elrond's time with the Dwarves very fun.

They're pushing hard to make you think the Stranger is either Sauron or Gandalf (or even Saruman or Radagast), but those seem to be a bit on-the-nose, so I'm gonna swing for the fences and say it's gonna be one of the previously unseen Blue Wizards, Alatar or Pallando.

I would love that and it fits with the time frame, as you argue.

Based on first impressions, I don't think there's much chance of this approaching GoT stratospheric pop culture status.

That's impossible so I won't look for that. If Bezos is then he going to be disappointed.

IMDb ratings unlocked, and the show is currently at 6.1. Does this put future seasons in danger?

Nope.

That black elf must have found the best barbershop in Middle Earth.

And they eventually taught the ancient Greeks and Babylonians who used short hair as a sign of servitude in some cases, while long hair was a sign of noble or wealth status.

 

[137th Gebirg]

I haven't seen this yet, but plan to. Based on my observations so far, it would seem that those with a comprehensive, or even semi-comprehensive, a priori knowledge of Tolkien's early-timeline works like the Silmarillion, are more inclined to dislike the new series, whereas casual fans are more inclined to enjoy it. There are, of course, always exceptions, so not trying to generalize here. While I have read all the main books of LOTR & Hobbit (both very ponderous in their own ways), I would still consider myself in the latter, "casual", group - I am by no means a Tolkien scholar. There are folks who have clearly dedicated good portions of their lives to studying the mythos. I'm definitely not one of them.

I plan on starting it this weekend if I have the time, to put my theory to the test.

 

[fireproof78]

There are, of course, always exceptions, so not trying to generalize here.

Proud to be the exception! Been reading Tolkien for a while, letters included. Now reading the Similarion.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Something I forgot to mention in my review:

ENTS!!!!

That is all.

They're pushing hard to make you think the Stranger is either Sauron or Gandalf (or even Saruman or Radagast), but those seem to be a bit on-the-nose, so I'm gonna swing for the fences and say it's gonna be one of the previously unseen Blue Wizards, Alatar or Pallando.

The time that the Blue Wizards arrived in Middle-earth is uncertain. In Unfinished Tales, Tolkien wrote that the five Istari came to Middle-earth together in TA 1000. However, in The Peoples of Middle-earth, they are said to have arrived in the Second Age, around the year SA 1600, the time of the forging of the One Ring. Their mission was directed at weakening Sauron's forces in the eastern and southern parts of Middle-earth, whereas the other Istari were focused on the west.

"I think that they went as emissaries to distant regions, east and south... Missionaries to enemy occupied lands as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron."
—J.R.R. Tolkien
https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Blue_Wizards

The bolded parts all fit with the general (compressed) timeline and regional setting of the series and where Sauron's forces are gathering.

I'm in an odd place on this one. I've been obsessed over Alatar and Pallando for years considering what little we know about them and I've always hungered to learn more about them, particularly what they did in the east.

And yet, I still don't like the idea of The Stranger being either of them. Not necessarily because of the timeline (although having them arrived before the forging of the rings feels odd), but it just doesn't feel right. I can't put a finger on why. Maybe it's because I've always envisioned them together and The Stranger is just one. Maybe it's something else. I don't know

IMDb ratings unlocked, and the show is currently at 6.1. Does this put future seasons in danger?

How many more threads and shows do I need to keep calling you out on this shit?

Just. STOP.