Spoilers Lord of the Rings TV series

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Cyrus, Nov 4, 2017.

  1. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Um, yeah... you see, a dwarf kingdom at its height is quite different from a dwarf kingdom that's become a "half-drowned dungeon" after losing its dwarves and getting occupied by monsters!
     
  2. FPAlpha

    FPAlpha Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    That was AMAZING! :)

    To get the most obvious out of the way - it looks gorgeous and should have been watched on a huge screen at the movie theater. It effortlessly matches the Jackson LotR movies in grand views and landscapes but it should given the budget. That's not putting down the effort but the money is truly well spent as it instantly immerses you in this world and makes it feel real so job well done.

    I already love the characters and the actors who portray them and for a Tolkien Fan it's nice to see some famous names and knowing who they are and the importance to the Ring story overall + the introduction of some news ones provides new mysteries.

    The story itself was engaging from the start but kicks it up in the second episode - the feeling of something truly evil coming together and almost everybody not realizing it makes for a very engaging viewing experience. I am no Tolkien purist, i couldn't care less about a sentence in some Appendix he wrote that hasn't been translated 100% into the movie or show so i have no problem with the premise of the show, which explores a time Tolkien himself didn't write too much or too detailed about.

    All i can say is that i now want to know who the Stranger is. I flipped multiple time between several possibilities - first it was Sauron but then i remembered he is already in Middle Earth, then i thought it was a Mayar ( maybe even Gandalf himself) but the guy seems truly evil ( near confirmed by the preview clip) so i have no clue who or what he is, i want to know what is in that glowing dwarven chest, who these sailors are who rescued Galadriel and that guy ( Numenorians) and what will happen to that kid who found/hid the Morgoth blade.
     
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  3. Asbo Zaprudder

    Asbo Zaprudder Admiral Admiral

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    I think some people are too much influenced by their hatred of Bezos. I though it was a strong start and episode 2 was better than episode 1. I'd give it four stars so far.

    I agree that G.I. Galadriel is a massive deviation from canon and she should already be married to Celeborn and have a daughter Celebrian by this time in the Second Age. However, it's something I can ignore provided we don't venture into soap-opera territory. We never did hear her brother named but I assume it was meant to be Finrod Felagund. Book Galadriel had two other brothers: Angrod and Aegnor. Angrod was the grandfather of Gil-galad so Galadriel is his great-aunt, which episode 1 doesn't mention when he rewards her. Aegnor and Angrod were slain by the fires of Thangorodrim in the Dagor Bragollach (Battle of Sudden Flame) before the Siege of Angband. I'm guessing Amazon wasn't given the rights to fill in the details and any adaptation is going to omit lots anyway to avoid confusing and boring people.

    The main mysteries for me that have been set up are:
    • What is the object Theo found in the barn?
    • What is the shining object in the Dwarven chest?
    • Who is meteor man?
    Of course, Arda is still a disc before the fall of Númenor and we did hear the edge of the world mentioned. It would have been cool to see that just so that flat earthers could be enraged when Arda is reshaped.

    Another breaking of canon* is that there had been more than one pairing between Elves and Men by this time. I assume Tuor and Idril, grandparents of Elrond and Elros, were meant. However, there were also Beren and Lúthien Tinúviel, who are extremely important in the legendarium and who were ancestors of both Aragorn and Arwen. Beren and Lúthien Tinúviel were the great-grandparents of Elrond and Elros on their mother's (Elwing's) side.

    ETA: * Not so, I misheard the line, which actually stated two pairings.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2022
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  4. theenglish

    theenglish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    At least we don't have to wear cowboy hats for them to get it.
     
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  5. KennyB

    KennyB I have spoken............ Moderator

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    Prob because they vote without watching...........
     
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  6. FPAlpha

    FPAlpha Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    That was quite evident, at least to me. It seemed to be a blade forged for the armies of Morgoth/Sauron - it even had Sauron's rune in it. I figure it is something akin to the Nazgul blades and a remnant of the war against Morgoth. The sentry Elves even speak of Men and their heritage of allegiance to Morgoth and this was "just" a physical representation of that.
     
  7. KennyB

    KennyB I have spoken............ Moderator

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    Just finished episode 1---rolling right into 2.........wearing my Air Pods Pro.........I am most impressed with the sound design and MUSIC for far......visuals are beautiful but bloody hell the score is fantastic!
     
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  8. Asbo Zaprudder

    Asbo Zaprudder Admiral Admiral

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    I did wonder if it was actually Sauron's personal blade as it was activated by Theo's blood but perhaps it's just some generic orc blade as you say.
     
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  9. FPAlpha

    FPAlpha Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    I just wondered where the sword went as it seemed to reform itself yet when he left with the others there was no way he could hide a big sword the way he was dressed. It'll be interesting to see what it does to him, it's obviously not just a chunk of dark steel and it seems to affect him like the One Ring affects its wearer over time.
     
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  10. mswood

    mswood Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Sorry but you are absolutely in error over the last paragraph. Not that there had been more then one coupling, you are right there was two. But wrong in saying they violated canon.

    Direct quote of the episode, "My point is this, only twice in known history has a pairing between elves and humans even been attempted, and in each occasion it ended in tragedy. It ended in death."

    That's a reference to two separate pairings, which would very likely be the two you mention. Not a singular pairing.

    Also you mention that Galadriel should already be married and a mother. My point on that is ok, and... Because to the best of my knowledge to date on the show we have no evidence of her marital status one way or another. Or her status of being a parent, one way or another. In the books Galadriel and Celeborn didn't always travel or live together, the status of their daughter and if she always travelled with at least one of her parents is not in any text. And we know there are times when their separation is long by our standards but to a race that can expect to live tens of thousands of years at least, a separation of a 100 years or such wouldn't necessarily be a significant deal.
     
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  11. Asbo Zaprudder

    Asbo Zaprudder Admiral Admiral

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    Ah, ok, I misheard the line. They did get it correct in that case. I need to watch it with subtitles. I suspect Galadriel is not married and a mother as she would not have agreed to go to Valinor without her family. She's also Gil-galad's great aunt as I mentioned.

    Also the denigration of Elrond as not being noble enough is ridiculous. He's Eärendil and Elwing's son FFS. I assume it might be intended to represent some sort of prejudice against the doubly half-elven, which would be total bollocks. Elrond would be Galadriel's son-in-law later on but probably not in this show as it only covers the Second Age.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2022
  12. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Sir Lenny Henry is a Hobbit?! That's both bizarre and weirdly perfect. I approve!
    The Stranger positively screams "Mithrandir" to me. The nose, the hair, the beard, an anger that can bend and creek the wood around him, talks to flying insects, fell from and has an affinity with the stars, friend of halflings . . . Seriously, all he's missing is the staff, pipe and pointy hat. Sure, it's a few thousand years early, but I'll not begrudge the show from doing something new and interesting so long as they keep to the spirit of the story.

    As for what's in the box; the Silmaril that was cast into the earth certainly leaps to mind. Though whatever it is, there's a fair chance it'll be instrumental in the forging of the Rings, if not the One Ring itself.
    Who wants to place bets on Theo being the future King of Angmar (and possibly of the Witchy persuasion)?
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2022
  13. Asbo Zaprudder

    Asbo Zaprudder Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, he's fine. I didn't mind the Harfoot stuff at all.
    I was going to look up the words he spoke. It sounded like Quenya, which would be the language spoken in Valinor.
    Yes, that seems likely. I thought that the stones in the Elven rings were fragments of a Silmaril but I might be misremembering - their gems are different colours.

    The Silmaril recovered by Beren and Lúthien was set as a star in the sky by the Valar. The other two gems were taken from Morgoth at the end of the War of Wrath and then stolen by Fëanor's sons, Maedhros and Maglor. The jewels burned their hands as they had Morgoth's. In their agony, Maedhros threw himself into a fiery pit with his Silmaril and Maglor threw his into the sea. Perhaps it's Maedhros's Silmaril? However, I believe it was Tolkien's intention that the Silmarils be recovered after a prophesised final battle, the "Dagor Dagorath", but this prophesy was left out of the published version of The Silmarillion.
    Perhaps. The Witch King of Angmar is generally believed to have been a Númenorean lord but his origin is not well established.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2022
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  14. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Also if we're being funny about it; IIRC the show only has licence to adapt the material in the LotR Appendices anyway. Plus who's to say the thing won't get re-lost in the abyss of Moria by the time all's said and done?
    Side note: disturbing a Balrog as a result of finding a Silmaril deep beneath the roots of the mountain would make a kind of sense. So perhaps Durin's Bane wasn't just random bad luck; the thing was down there for a reason.
     
  15. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    The silmarils can be a musical lock for Balrogs since they can be a miner key?
     
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  16. KennyB

    KennyB I have spoken............ Moderator

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    TBH I wasn't looking forward to this.........just saw it EVERYWHERE today so figured I would try it........but now I'm counting the minutes until episode 3!
     
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  17. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I was thinking that it could be more like the Balrog was drawn to and possibly mesmerised by it (as Morgoth himself was.) As for how they ended up in the same place; perhaps it had fled or was knocked into that fiery chasm in the war of wrath, and either both were carried along the same lava tube towards the misty mountains; or the Balrog grabbed the thing and pulled a Gollum, keeping it for itself in the abyss.
     
  18. Jedi Marso

    Jedi Marso Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, two episodes in, I have to say I'm disappointed if this is what a billion dollars buys ya.

    It's very pretty, I'll give you that. But it is not the history of Galadriel or the Second Age. Not even close. As an 'adaptation' it has far overstepped its bounds. I'm not even going to bother to list all the contradictions, except for the two most major ones: By this time in the S.A., Galadriel is married to Celeborn and has a daughter, Elrond's future wife, Celebrian. Also, this is before the changing of the world by Era Iluvatar- Amon and Tol Erresea (The Undying Lands) have not been separated from the world; the world is still flat, and Numenor is in its heyday although not a single mention is made of it. This show treats Valinor the way it should be in the Third Age, not the Second.

    In short, this is a fuckin' mess. But a very pretty, cinematic looking mess. The score by Bear McReary is brilliant.

    I'll watch the rest of it, of course, but I won't be pretending it is a history of the S.A. in any way, shape, or form.
     
  19. Greylock Crescent

    Greylock Crescent Adventurer Premium Member

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    Well, yeah. They pretty much said that this wasn't going to be a "history" lesson but a "dramatization." If I want all the details of the history I've got The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales to get my fix.

    As a dramatization, this show has done very well thus far. The high level of production is evident from start to finish. Exposition dump aside, the story builds not just solid motivations, but mysteries an intrigue. Characters have clear motivations, but complexities also.

    I'm quite looking forward to the rest and seeing how it all develops.
     
  20. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Who cares?
    Treating a drama as a "history " is setting up for massive disappointment.
     
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