"Such men dare take what they want..."--Khan: Sexy or creepy?

[Neopeius]

We watched the summer rerun of Space Seed last night, and it was very interesting watching the various reactions, particularly among the women watchers. Two found him outright revolting, his aggressive seduction off-putting. Others found him sexy, particularly the hair fondling scene. My wife (in the latter camp) notes that Khan never forced himself on McGivers, but merely manipulated her perfectly. Indeed, he even waits a moment before kissing her, essentially ensuring her consent.

So my question is mainly for the folks who find men attractive -- when did you first see Space Seed, what did you think of Khan then, and what do you think of him now?

 

[Jedi Marso]

I don't find men attractive (as in I'm straight), but I think Khan as presented in Space Seed is very much a product of the 1960's. A very 'Mad Men' sort of attitude. It is bound to turn off a generation raised under feminism, decades later.

For me, Khan was always just a villain, not a potential object of lust or fantasy. So naturally, if the way he treats women can be interpreted as villainous, that just slots right in with the expectation bias for villains. From my earliest viewings to my most recent, I found little charming about him- he's an egotistical bastard and a bully.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Remember what Andre the Giant said?

• Fezzik : I just figured why you give me so much trouble.
  
  Westley : Why is that
  
  [squashed against a rock]
  
  Westley : do you think?
  
  Fezzik : Well, I haven't ###### one person for so long. I've been specialized in groups, ####ing gangs for local charities, that kind of thing.
  
  Westley : Why should that make such a
  
  [squashed painfully]
  
  Westley : difference?
  
  Fezzik : You use different moves when you're ####ing half a dozen people, than when you only have to be worried about one
  
  [falls unconscious]

Eugenics.

(I got a lot of Andromeda in my head.)

I don't think Khan had just one wife, and I think it's his actual job to make superbabies with as many human slaves as possible, so he probably has to attend to a lot of coitus on a production line, to live up to his obligations.

The man is a villain, and this is how I would write a villain, if his concerns were what we think Khan's are, to build a global super human Utopia.

Do we think he needed human slaves to carry his empire, he planned on freeing the slaves when everything calmed down, or was he planning on Augmenting 14 billion people, and/or their as yet unconceived children?

 

[Jedi Marso]

Remember what Andre the Giant said?
Do we think he needed human slaves to carry his empire, he planned on freeing the slaves when everything calmed down, or was he planning on Augmenting 14 billion people, and/or their as yet unconceived children?

If you give everyone the 'superior intellect', it's no longer special or superior, is it? No, Khan and his supermen would have kept that for themselves, to better maintain their power over others. It would have been one of the most human things he ever did- power for me, but not for thee.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If you give everyone the 'superior intellect', it's no longer special or superior, is it? No, Khan and his supermen would have kept that for themselves, to better maintain their power over others. It would have been one of the most human things he ever did- power for me, but not for thee.

TNG Masterpiece Society. A colony of Supermen in the 24th century. No human slaves to speak of. Everyone had a super intellect, and everyone was super human and benignly living their best life.

Khan was not at a moment of finalization where he needed a "solution" to the human question. He controlled Asia, which is India (0.98 billion baseline humans) and China (1.21 Billion baseline humans) in "our" 1996. Eventually, if he's as bad as some think, mass sterilization is way more economic than mass conversion or mass extermination.

Garrisoning his own territory perched on the moment of revolt, and surrounded by dozens of other Super Empire that also control hundreds of millions of baseline humans... Khan was going to need millions of soldiers, superhuman and baseline to hold his borders, pacify his population, and sally forth to flip his opponents territory.

Although Greg Cox said it was a cold war fought with subterfuge, influence and leverage, so maybe there were only a few hundred Supermen?

 

[Neopeius]

So my question is mainly for the folks who find men attractive -- when did you first see Space Seed, what did you think of Khan then, and what do you think of him now?

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

You did open the can of worms, "Neopeius," and the only way to stuff them back in is to use a bigger can.

Remember what Andre the Giant said?

You redacted "fought," "fighting," "battling"? I don't think there's any spoiler issue involved with a 35-year-old hit movie that I'm sure everybody here has seen (and many have on DVD).

Or do you find the words offensive? Of course, that brings us to the late George Carlin's old bit about replacing "kill" with "fuck" in all the old movie cliches.

Then again, The Princess Bride was a bit prophetic about masks:

Man in Black: Oh no, it's just that they're terribly comfortable. I think everyone will be wearing them in the future.

Yes, Khan was basically just an asshole. A very smart, very strong, very charismatic (but very overconfident) asshole. Some people are attracted to assholes (and I'm speaking strictly of the people, not defecatory orifices; that's entirely outside the discussion). Some even find them sexy. There's a word for that sort of person: "Fool."

I feel no sexual attraction to other men, but the protagonist of my novel-in-progress is a woman, and I've spent enough time inside her head to know that she would find him much more creepy than sexy. And a few chapters back, I wrote in a throwaway bit establishing that she watches TOS, in strip syndication.

And as it happens, just this morning I was thinking about how certain current world events remind me of the Eugenics Wars, especially the way GC envisioned them. The January 6th Insurrection. The invasion of Ukraine. We are living out the old Chinese curse: these are interesting times indeed.

 

[shapeshifter]

Watching guys hit on women for one night stands, (or reversed) makes me sick. It's gotta be mutually earned to even have a chance with me, and even then I sometimes get the creeps.

Suspension of disbelief of fake romance scenes are my one giant peeve, I guess.

 

[Ragitsu]

"Sexy or creepy?"

Both? Highly venomous animals boasting a dazzling array of colors have their admirers; naturally, there are going to be people attracted to dangerous individuals despite the incredibly evident warning signs that indicate any kind of relationship is a courtship with emotional abuse, disfigurement, crippling or even death.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You did open the can of worms, "Neopeius," and the only way to stuff them back in is to use a bigger can.


You redacted "fought," "fighting," "battling"? I don't think there's any spoiler issue involved with a 35-year-old hit movie that I'm sure everybody here has seen (and many have on DVD).

Or do you find the words offensive? Of course, that brings us to the late George Carlin's old bit about replacing "kill" with "fuck" in all the old movie cliches.

Then again, The Princess Bride was a bit prophetic about masks:


Yes, Khan was basically just an asshole. A very smart, very strong, very charismatic (but very overconfident) asshole. Some people are attracted to assholes (and I'm speaking strictly of the people, not defecatory orifices; that's entirely outside the discussion). Some even find them sexy. There's a word for that sort of person: "Fool."

I feel no sexual attraction to other men, but the protagonist of my novel-in-progress is a woman, and I've spent enough time inside her head to know that she would find him much more creepy than sexy. And a few chapters back, I wrote in a throwaway bit establishing that she watches TOS, in strip syndication.

And as it happens, just this morning I was thinking about how certain current world events remind me of the Eugenics Wars, especially the way GC envisioned them. The January 6th Insurrection. The invasion of Ukraine. We are living out the old Chinese curse: these are interesting times indeed.

Our supply chain issues remind me of Dark Angel.

Khan is not Sexy.

Mr Rourke from Fantasy Island is Sexy.

But why am I talking about Malcolm McDowell, the lad who actually killed Kirk?

 

[fireproof78]

Watching guys hit on women for one night stands, (or reversed) makes me sick. It's gotta be mutually earned to even have a chance with me, and even then I sometimes get the creeps.

Suspension of disbelief of fake romance scenes are my one giant peeve, I guess.

Same. There are few fictional characters who can hit that good chemistry for romance and make it work. Most of the time, it just feels not right, at best, and creepy at worst. Trek rarely hit it, and Khan interacting with McGyvers was not great. So, more on topic I guess is that Khan comes out looking quite unattractive.

 

[Jedi Marso]

TNG Masterpiece Society. A colony of Supermen in the 24th century. No human slaves to speak of. Everyone had a super intellect, and everyone was super human and benignly living their best life.

Khan was not at a moment of finalization where he needed a "solution" to the human question. He controlled Asia, which is India (0.98 billion baseline humans) and China (1.21 Billion baseline humans) in "our" 1996. Eventually, if he's as bad as some think, mass sterilization is way more economic than mass conversion or mass extermination.

Garrisoning his own territory perched on the moment of revolt, and surrounded by dozens of other Super Empire that also control hundreds of millions of baseline humans... Khan was going to need millions of soldiers, superhuman and baseline to hold his borders, pacify his population, and sally forth to flip his opponents territory.

Although Greg Cox said it was a cold war fought with subterfuge, influence and leverage, so maybe there were only a few hundred Supermen?

Along this line of thought, it would stand to reason that Khan would create as many augments as he needed for his purposes, but no more than that. Augments would remain the minority power wielders with the mass of humanity as slaves under their rule, whether they were seen as benign despots or otherwise.

 

[Ragitsu]

I don't seem to remember the people in "The Masterpiece Society" being overall superhuman; I remember birth defects/hereditary illnesses being eliminated and that people were programmed to excel in specified roles, but not everyone was superhumanly strong/fast/tough/et cetera.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't seem to remember the people in "The Masterpiece Society" being overall superhuman; I remember birth defects/hereditary illnesses being eliminated and that people were programmed to excel in specified roles, but not everyone was superhumanly strong/fast/tough/et cetera.

CONOR: You see, this is an engineered society.
RIKER: Engineered?
CONOR: Genetically engineered. Our ancestors came from Earth to develop a perfect society. They believed that through controlled procreation, they could create people without flaws and those people would build a paradise.
TROI: All of you have been selectively bred? Your DNA patterns chosen?
CONOR: Eight generations of us.
MARTIN: We have immeasurably extended the potential of humanity, physically, psychologically. We have evolved beyond, beyond
LAFORGE: Beyond us.
MARTIN: Frankly, yes. No one in this society would be blind, for example. No offence intended.

 

[Orphalesion]

Creepy. Definitely creepy,. I would not want to be in a relationship with someone like that, and well...he's a fucking warlord/former dictator, that's an instant nope. Though I also must say that the actor is not my type.
Teenage me might have found him attractive if he had been played by an actor who's my type, but not adult me.

And really, even the episode goes to some length to portray McGivers (that's her name?) as obsessed with...well how am I even supposed to put that? Dominant men? And she comes off as pretty flaky in my opinion.

 

[valkyrie013]

Depends what your "cup of tea" is.
I know of a few women that like "bad boys" often to a fault. Some know it won't last but they have fun during the time. Others just suck at choosing boyfriends.
Khan was tall, strong, handsome, charismatic. Get a room of 10 women, 7-8 would fall for him.

 

[Orphalesion]

, handsome

That's debatable.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I don't seem to remember the people in "The Masterpiece Society" being overall superhuman; I remember birth defects/hereditary illnesses being eliminated and that people were programmed to excel in specified roles, but not everyone was superhumanly strong/fast/tough/et cetera.

It's subtle.

CONOR: You see, this is an engineered society.
RIKER: Engineered?
CONOR: Genetically engineered. Our ancestors came from Earth to develop a perfect society. They believed that through controlled procreation, they could create people without flaws and those people would build a paradise.
TROI: All of you have been selectively bred? Your DNA patterns chosen?
CONOR: Eight generations of us.
MARTIN: We have immeasurably extended the potential of humanity, physically, psychologically. We have evolved beyond, beyond
LAFORGE: Beyond us.
MARTIN: Frankly, yes. No one in this society would be blind, for example. No offence intended.

I doubt that they are 20th century Supermen.

But whoever designed this colony on Earth centuries Earlier saw what Khan did, and then did this.

A generation is defined as from when you're born to when you start having babies, which is generally 20 to 30 years... Call it 25... 8 x 25 = 200. 2367 - 200 = 6 years after the founding of the Federation. Its clear that however they hadn't heard about the Federation before, so they probably left for unknown space during Archer's era of exploration?

 

[Neopeius]

That's debatable.

My biggest issue is the manscaping.

If he'd looked like this... rrowf!

 

[Daddy Todd]

Montalban was not unattractive. But Khan was a cold-blooded creep.