Trek without "The Menagerie"

[Elder Knight]

How would Trek history have been changed without The Menagerie?

As I understand it, the producers wanted to stretch their budget to get through Season One, and tried to find a way that they could air the abandoned 1964 pilot film. Of course, they had managed to incorporate “Where No Man Has Gone Before” into the ongoing series, but here the differences in the production were relatively slight. It was a brilliant stoke to turn the old story into a flashback within a new story.

I can't imagine a new series of that vintage (just 10 episodes old) intentionally constructing such a flashback ("Hey, let's just go and say that Spock's been around 13 years with another Captain!") They'd write it off as unnecessarily confusing. I seriously doubt that the show's writers would have given us this retroactive fleshing-out of the past had they not been forced into it by these budgetary considerations.

This bit of salvage and cost-cutting immeasurably enhanced the Trek universe by extending the history of the Federation and the Enterprise (not to mention Spock) well into this new future's "past."

Instant gravitas. Or maybe a prime example of serendipity.

(Indeed, would anyone have even thought of a Next Generation without a couple of generations under the belt? We certainly wouldn’t have Enterprise or Strange New Worlds!)

Or am I getting carried away?

 

[Jedi Marso]

I'd say it definitely added some depth and backstory to the Trek-verse, but I don't think the lack of it would have resulted in a massively altered timeline in terms of what we got. The Cage would probably be a 'special feature' to some past version of a TOS box set.

 

[Maurice]

It wasn't just that they wanted to stretch their budget, they also were running short on filmable scripts and the two-parter bought them the breathing room they needed to meet their airdates.

 

[Tosk]

They'd write it off as unnecessarily confusing.

How would it be confusing to say that these characters have a past?

 

[Elder Knight]

How would it be confusing to say that these characters have a past?

I'm not sure. Are there examples of earlier TV series abruptly extending their timeline backward?

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'm not sure. Are there examples of earlier TV series abruptly extending their timeline backward?

Well there are flashback episodes in a lot of TV shows. Off the top of my head I know the Dick Van Dyke show did episodes about Rob and Laura's first meeting, their Wedding and I think the birth of Ritchie.

 

[Elder Knight]

Well there are flashback episodes in a lot of TV shows. Off the top of my head I know the Dick Van Dyke show did episodes about Rob and Laura's first meeting, their Wedding and I think the birth of Ritchie.

Okay, the show did recreate the past with subtle changes in costuming and makeup. However, they didn't resurrect old footage from Head of the Family (pilot) with Carl Reiner in Dick Van Dyke's role and try to make us accept it!

(I'm sure that others will find examples to embarrass me, though!)

 

[fireproof78]

hey'd write it off as unnecessarily confusing. I seriously doubt that the show's writers would have given us this retroactive fleshing-out of the past had they not been forced into it by these budgetary considerations.

Confusing to whom? The episode takes great pains to state "Is this past?" *beep*.

Kirk is our grounding figure in this episode to explore Trek's past. Whether another show has done it before, I have no idea, but the idea of it extending its history should come as no surprise. We have references like the Earth-Romulan War, Kirk as a "walking stack of books with legs" and his history with Mitchell, and with Karidian. All Menagerie did was add film to these events, instead of a flash back.

I don't think the series would be any lesser for it, since the Cage still existed. But, I do think we would see some cheaper episodes, or more shoestring style, due to the deadlines of production and lack of scripts.

 

[Tosk]

However, they didn't resurrect old footage from Head of the Family (pilot) with Carl Reiner in Dick Van Dyke's role and try to make us accept it!

You didn't originally say that no other show had done the same as The Menagerie, you said that you doubt that a show would do it without the impetus of having old footage to work with.

Anyway, my thing was just that a show depicting flashbacks to a point before the pilot isn't particularly confusing. But I also don't want to appear combative about it.

 

[Weyoun 251]

How would it be confusing to say that these characters have a past?

Have you not seen the people complain about the extra information given about certain characters in Disco and SNW.

If they had done it now I think people would not have reacted as positively as they did back then

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Have you not seen the people complain about the extra information given about certain characters in Disco and SNW.

If they had done it now I think people would not have reacted as positively as they did back then

This is nonsense. Audiences like characters to have backstory and if they are invested in the characters, they like the story to be expanded.

 

[Weyoun 251]

This is nonsense.

That is a bit harsh, especially with no counterpoint to back it up.

I feel that people suddenly discovering that Spock had served for 13 years and under a different captain would be taken poorly - considering many have said that Uhura or Chapel having served during SNW is wrong then it feels probable that there would be a similar reaction.

I could be wrong but to simply state "that is nonsense" and not at least go into why is poor form

 

[Richard S. Ta]

That is a bit harsh, especially with no counterpoint to back it up.

I feel that people suddenly discovering that Spock had served for 13 years and under a different captain would be taken poorly - considering many have said that Uhura or Chapel having served during SNW is wrong then it feels probable that there would be a similar reaction.

I could be wrong but to simply state "that is nonsense" and not at least go into why is poor form

I did go into why in my second sentence. But, to elaborate.

Generally fans go ape if they find a new detail is added that does not correlate with previous details. So, for example, finding Spock has a sister called Michael Burnham. Nothing in The Menagerie contradicts anything in a previous episode.

If it was done now (and done well) no-one would have a problem with it. Hence, nonsense. I didn't intend 'nonsense' as a personal insult and think as far as being online goes it's about as far from harsh as it gets, but there's a 'report' button right there if you don't feel happy.

Regardless, I intended no personal offence and if any was caused then I apologise.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I have vague memories of Gilligan's Island and Lost in Space repurposing footage from their pilots in later episodes.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Generally fans go ape if they find a new detail is added that does not correlate with previous details. So, for example, finding Spock has a sister called Michael Burnham

But nowhere in TOS is it said Spock didn't have a sister. So there is no contradiction.

 

[Weyoun 251]

I did go into why in my second sentence. But, to elaborate.

Generally fans go ape if they find a new detail is added that does not correlate with previous details. So, for example, finding Spock has a sister called Michael Burnham. Nothing in The Menagerie contradicts anything in a previous episode.

If it was done now (and done well) no-one would have a problem with it. Hence, nonsense. I didn't intend 'nonsense' as a personal insult and think as far as being online goes it's about as far from harsh as it gets, but there's a 'report' button right there if you don't feel happy.

Regardless, I intended no personal offence and if any was caused then I apologise.

Sorry mate - the initial post was only a single sentence so it just sounded dismissive.

I didn't take offence per se but we have had good quality conversation on here before so was surprised you were not (from what could be seen) engaging.

Am I fuck going to report you - was just surprised.

I do agree with your contention but I also feel some audiences these days are more sensitive to change than they were in the past - it was par for the course in the past for long lost brothers/sisters to appear or your dog's former owner's 2nd cousin to be the mastermind behind it all whereas now there is greater (and easier) analysis of these things so maybe that is what drives it.

I think the only contradiction in The Menagerie is Spock's tone being more emotive than in TOS but that isn't a deal breaker for me although it is something I think people would call out more if it happened today.

 

[Weyoun 251]

But nowhere in TOS is it said Spock didn't have a sister. So there is no contradiction.

Same place it said he had a half brother - no where until it was needed for a story

 

[Tosk]

Am I fuck going to report you - was just surprised.

My fave typo/autocorrect today.

 

[Weyoun 251]

My fave typo/autocorrect today.

I'm confused as to where the typo is?

 

[Tosk]

Perhaps I'm simply unfamiliar with the phrase "am i fuck going to report you".
My apologies.