S2 predestination paradox

[Captrek]

Over the course of the season, Discovery goes to investigate seven mysterious signals. Every time they investigate a signal they pick up something they will need for their battle against Control. Come the battle, Burnham realizes that the signals had been sent back in time by her, now, so she sends them back closing the loops and allowing victory.

Burnham didn’t figure out where the signals needed to be, she just sent them where she had already seen them. It seems like a great plan to summon Discovery to those particular places, but whose plan was it?

 

[NCC-73515]

There were also initial signals that happened at the same time, but neither Burnham or her mom apparently made those

 

[Captrek]

And what’s the deal with the Red Angel mind-melding with child Spock to give him visions of the signals? Where did that come from?

 

[Tosk]

That's what happens when your central idea gets changed (or never fully decided upon in advance) part-way through.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Over the course of the season, Discovery goes to investigate seven mysterious signals. Every time they investigate a signal they pick up something they will need for their battle against Control. Come the battle, Burnham realizes that the signals had been sent back in time by her, now, so she sends them back closing the loops and allowing victory.

Burnham didn’t figure out where the signals needed to be, she just sent them where she had already seen them. It seems like a great plan to summon Discovery to those particular places, but whose plan was it?

It got them everywhere they needed to be in order to defeat Control at the end. In sci-fi time travel, there never needs to be a master plan and effect can preceed cause.

And what’s the deal with the Red Angel mind-melding with child Spock to give him visions of the signals? Where did that come from?

That was Spock mind melding with Momma Burnham. The emptiness he felt was her having roamed a lifeless galaxy for decades, trying endlessly to change the timeline and failing.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Yeah, but she didn't know about the signals, so he couldn't have gotten that knowledge from the mind-meld.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Yeah, but she didn't know about the signals, so he couldn't have gotten that knowledge from the mind-meld.

Perhaps a Momma Burnham from another timeline? Like how Guinan in Pic S2 hadn't lived through "Time's Arrow"

 

[drt]

That's what happens when your central idea gets changed (or never fully decided upon in advance) part-way through.

I'm looking forward to the day we (hopefully) learn what was originally planned, as it seems once Harberts and Berg were released the original concept for the season was dropped entirely (presumably on the advice of CBS attorneys). It will be interesting to see if it could have been better than what was somewhat haphazardly crammed into the framework of what had already been made.

 

[Roald]

Yeah, but she didn't know about the signals, so he couldn't have gotten that knowledge from the mind-meld.

This is one of the things that still bugs me to this day. Someone somewhere said that because of the meld, his perception of space and time was distorted and he experienced the vision of the signals due to that, even though they did not come from Burnham’s mother herself..

 

[shapeshifter]

IIUC it, the mom stuff was only in the story to supply the red angel suit to Burnham.

Mom's presence complicated the red angel story though because she made some people think she was the one creating the signals at the beginning, but she wasn't - Burnham was doing them from the last episode.

It's really brilliant, imo. Probably the best bit of time travel foreshadowing Trek has ever done.

ETA response to @NCC-73515

There were also initial signals that happened at the same time, but neither Burnham or her mom apparently made those

She did them all. Think 4th dimensionally.

Imagine you have a time travel machine. You use it to go back in time to somewhere at 8:00 am this morning and light a candle there, then return to the starting time and place.

Now you TT to some other place at 8:00 am this morning, light a candle there then return to the starting time and place.

You lit a candle at two different places at 8:00 am.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

The other set of signals (presumably) weren't in different places, they were in a different time. Burnham could've done twice as many trips, but she didn't know where the final signals would be until after her time travelling.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

They originally saw all the signals at the same time in perfect synchronisation, then they all disappeared except for one. The signals then appeared again one at a time.

 

[NCC-73515]

ETA response to @NCC-73515


She did them all. Think 4th dimensionally.

Imagine you have a time travel machine. You use it to go back in time to somewhere at 8:00 am this morning and light a candle there, then return to the starting time and place.

Now you TT to some other place at 8:00 am this morning, light a candle there then return to the starting time and place.

You lit a candle at two different places at 8:00 am.

then show or tell that she also made the initial 7 instead of ignoring them

 

[Roald]

Another thing still left unexplained is how the time suit transported an entire church not only through time but also through space….

 

[dupersuper]

I gave up on making sense of Discovery season 2 when they included Burnham in a staff meeting planning how to capture the red angel at a time when they thought the red angel was future Burnham. Is that bad writing or were the command crew of Discovery supposed to be morons?

 

[yotsuya]

While I kind of liked the general plot of the season (just finished it... had to skip through the first few episodes until they got into the story), the entire season is full of plot holes you could drive a tank through. Talking with Burnham about how to capture herself was somewhat ridiculous but as it turned out it wasn't her, that worked out. But other things just felt messy. The tension was good and the action was good so it was watchable, but on reflection the number of plot holes and goofs take the air out of what could be a good season. Just the ones in the last two episodes alone make my head spin.

I have to say I love Saru and Tilly. Two good points to the series.

 

[NCC-73515]

Another thing still left unexplained is how the time suit transported an entire church not only through time but also through space….

the suit has a magical beam that can do anything... revive people, relocate churches...

 

[F. King Daniel]

 

[Caretaker]

I think I went cross-eyed looking at that.

 

[JoseNoodles]

It seems that Star Trek allows interaction across alternate mutually exclusive timelines, even when it shouldn't be possible. I was watching DS9's Visionary, where O'Brien keeps jumping ahead five hours into the future due to radiation in his body reacting with the quantum singularity of a cloaked Romulan Warbird. In one of his jumps, he ends up on a runabout leaving DS9 before the station explodes, and meets his future self. When he jumps back to his time he tries to artificially induce radiation exposure to jump only three hours ahead, trying to find out what destroyed the station. He meets his future self just before the explosion, but this O'Brien has no recollection of past O'Brien's forced time jump. For all intents and purposes, this is the same future O'Brien that past O'Brien meets on the runabout, only a few hours before. Past O'Brien has already altered the timeline by jumping back with fore knowledge of DS9's destruction, yet somehow he's able to jump again into the future where he was sleeping when the station started exploding and he had no knowledge of what was going to happen. This timeline should have been erased the moment past O'Brien jumped back, but yet it persists and past O'Brien is able to travel to it. Worse still, past O'Brien ends up dying and so this future O'Brien is the one who jumps back three hours to warn OPS about the incoming Romulan Warbird attack that caused the station's destruction in the future. The station is saved, which should have definitely erased that alternate future and the O'Brien from there as well. Yet he still exists at the episode's end and takes the place of the O'Brien who died, with the memories of a future that will never happen. They even acknowledge in the episode that this shouldn't be happening, but wave it away with both O'Briens exclaiming that they hate temporal mechanics.