Distances and Speeds in TOS

[C.E. Evans]

Because of recent discoveries about our Solar System--that it could really be as big as one light-year across--it could take a ship an entire year (on average) to cross a star system at impulse.

Better hope most star systems aren't as big or as horizontal as ours, I guess.

 

[Falconer]

Impulse in “Where No Man Has Gone Before”

Quotes:

- The Valiant had encountered a magnetic space storm and was being swept in this direction.
- The old impulse engines weren’t strong enough.
- Main engines are out, sir. We’re on emergency power cells.
- Captain’s log, Stardate 1312.9. Ship’s condition, heading back on impulse power only. Main engines burned out. The ship’s space warp ability gone. Earth Bases which were only days away are now years in the distance.
- Well, the main engines are gone, unless we can find some way to re-energise them.
- You’d better check the starboard impulse packs. Those points have about decayed to lead.
- I’m not joking, Lee! You activate those packs, and you’ll blow the whole impulse deck.
- There’s a planet a few light days away from here. Delta Vega. It has a lithium cracking station. We may be able to adapt some of its power packs to our engines.
- And if we can’t? We’ll be trapped in orbit there. We haven’t enough power to blast back out.
- That station is fully automated. There’s not a soul on the whole planet. Even the ore ships call only once every 20 years.
- Stardate 1313.1. We’re now approaching Delta Vega.

Analysis:

“Days away are now years” — Here he’s describing speeds under impulse power as analogous to warp speeds divided by 365.25. That is:

The Impulse scale probably doesn’t literally work that way; this is just to illustrate the range of what the normal/full/maximum impulse speed might be. Assuming the nearest Star Base is a few hundred light years away, we’re talking in the neighborhood of 16-66 times c.

Next, Delta Vega is “a few light-days away” and it takes them 0.2 days (approximately 4.8 hours) to get there. Once again we don’t know how many days “a few” is, but presumably greater than 1 and less than a week. So:

And that lines up just fine. Based on this episode, it seems the speed Enterprise travels under impulse in this episode is something like 16 or 24 times c. It’s possible its full impulse speed is hampered by the burnt out starboard packs.

 

[Sgt_G]

In the game-universe of Star Fleet Battles, the background information says that any ship with a working Impulse Engine can travel FTL, albeit much limited compared to Warp Drive enabled ships. How else could the Romulans build their Star Empire? This also allows separated Federation saucers and separated Klingon booms limp home under their own power.

 

[Falconer]

Right. The clear implication of WNM is that impulse is an older generation of propulsion tech. But still viable for Valiant to reach the Barrier, *conservatively* 1,000 ly from Earth, in obviously much, much less than 1,000 years. Maybe 15 years at 66c, or something like that. Of course an impulse-only vessel could have been absolutely bristling with compounding impulse engines, whereas Enterprise only has two for backup.

 

[blssdwlf]

Yeah - for older impulse-only ships they'd be built differently than modern warp ships. They'd have added volume for impulse fuel to make interstellar round trips. The TOS Enterprise's impulse engines seemed to only have emergency fuel supplies which is enough for a one way trip from where the warp engines failed to a starbase or planet. In non-emergency situations I think they would power the impulse drive with m/am system.

In later series outside of TOS the impulse engines became a much more important secondary propulsion system but with a sublight limitation. I don't believe SFB applied that limitation. YMMV.

 

[Jedi Marso]

I agree with you, blssdwlf, it helps in stories where the warp drive/dilithium is busted and you need to crawl to a nearby planet under impulse (but it still only takes a number of days, not years).

I like the idea of being able to use 'Impulse Power' for limited, low-speed warp propulsion, in addition to the idea of 'impulse' as a sublight method of propulsion (gravity-drive).

Just like there is a difference between 'warp drive' and antimatter power generation. One is the technology that creates a warp field, the other is the source of power for that technology. It's just accepted in Trek (generally speaking) that the 'warp drive' is both the power generation and field generation combined.

Consider this: the 'main energizers' Scotty speaks of, or ship's main power, come from the antimatter / dilithium power generation system. Secondary power (auxiliary power) come from the fusion generators, and emergency power is from the ship's battery packs. These are all power sources- none of them by themselves moves the ship.

The 'warp drive' is a function of the super impellor (warp) coils in the nacelles and associated technology. Under normal conditions, they require main power to function to their fullest potential. But fusion power may allow them to operate at a lower potential. (See below). By the same token, either main or aux power could be used to power the 'impulse engines', which are a form of sublight gravity drive that functions similar to inertial damping fields and generating artificial gravity aboard ship.

Now posit that the warp drive normally requires main power to function to its fullest potential. If main power becomes unavailable, impulse (fusion) power could be used to generate a low-power warpfield, giving perhaps speeds below Warp 2. Enough for an Enterprise ravaged by the energy barrier to make Delta Vega perhaps, or a later Enterprise ravaged by Khan to make it to Regula-1, and later the Mutara Nebula. Battery power would be sufficient for sublight propulsion only. Another issue this solves is that the ship can't move at warp without dilithium. It can, but due to the loss of power-focusing provided by the crystals, once again, maximum speed is knocked way down. It also explains how the Romulan war was fought by 'impulse powered' ships. We all recognize that any interstellar war requires FTL travel (in this context), so this solves that dilemma as well.

The more I think about this idea, the more I like it. It solves a lot of 'issues' regarding stuff seen on screen over the years, it's just that the terminology we hear doesn't match the tech we're talking about. In this case, you might have to jettison the 'main reactor' in lieu of the 'warp core', but perhaps the latter is just 'slang' for the matter-antimatter power system.

 

[Jedi Marso]

One other thing: I did always feel like FASA made its maps based off of ST Maps, although I admit I never delved into the scale as much as Falconer has obviously done. The Franz Joseph technical manual only added to the confusion on that front, as well, but that is so old that for the most part, only complete Trek-nerds or grogs like me even know what it is, much less reference it without looking at it. Like I mentioned in a previous post, my friends and I just took the FASA stuff as it was presented and made our games fit the framework.

As much as a traditionalist as I have always been about the old cubed-power warp scale, there are some definite arguments to be made for tweaking it. Fifth-power is a good first step. It makes Warp 2 a full four times faster than cube-scale (32c versus 8c), meaning the difference between about 6 weeks and 6 months for travel between just Earth and Alpha Centauri. It makes all the initial Federation members a lot more 'neighborly' as well in terms of travel times.

One thing that never jibed for me about ANY of the maps was how the Romulan and Klingon empires were placed roughly next to each other, roughly the same distance from the central UFP. According to older canon (pre-TNG), official first contact with the Klingons wasn't until the first decade of the 23rd Century, a half-century or more after the war with the Romulans. So I think the Klingon Empire should have been placed 'farther back' on the map than the Romulan Empire, although it would be totally possible for them to share a partial border, or at least be in relative proximity enough for prior contact and their own conflicts.

 

[Falconer]

I haven’t delved much into the lore of the Romulan War (from any source), but my simplistic imagination of the event is that the Federation was much smaller at the time, and the Romulan Empire, distant and unknown, lanced into the Federation of a sudden on a crusade to take back their ancient holy homeland (Vulcan), caused a lot of atrocities but ultimately got beat by the Earth fleets, who chased them all the way back to Romulus and surrender in all but name. Earth then leaves outposts as it were “overseas” (at the time).

In subsequent years, the Federation and Klingon Empire both majorly expand to their present borders (c. the beginning of The Final Reflection).

 

[Jedi Marso]

I haven’t delved much into the lore of the Romulan War (from any source), but my simplistic imagination of the event is that the Federation was much smaller at the time, and the Romulan Empire, distant and unknown, lanced into the Federation of a sudden on a crusade to take back their ancient holy homeland (Vulcan), caused a lot of atrocities but ultimately got beat by the Earth fleets, who chased them all the way back to Romulus and surrender in all but name. Earth then leaves outposts as it were “overseas” (at the time).

In subsequent years, the Federation and Klingon Empire both majorly expand to their present borders (c. the beginning of The Final Reflection).

I've seen that color map many times, but I can't find it on any of the FASA stuff I still have. Was this the back cover of one the books? If so, which one?

 

[Falconer]

Trader Captains and Merchant Princes, 1st ed.

 

[Jedi Marso]

Trader Captains and Merchant Princes, 1st ed.

That explains it. I had that supplement back in the 80's but it is one of the ones I don't have any more. Great color map of the grid-square one produced in B&W in other publications, although less 'filled-in'.

Is there a way to upload images directly from your computer? There are a couple of home-made maps I'd like to share here.

 

[publiusr]

In the game-universe of Star Fleet Battles, the background information says that any ship with a working Impulse Engine can travel FTL, albeit much limited compared to Warp Drive enabled ships. How else could the Romulans build their Star Empire? This also allows separated Federation saucers and separated Klingon booms limp home under their own power.

And here I thought Kruge’s BoP was the only non-warp FTL ship.

 

[Henoch]

Maybe 15 years at 66c, or something like that.

Captain's log, Star date 1312.4. The impossible has happened. From directly ahead, we're picking up a recorded distress signal, the call letters of a vessel which has been missing for over two centuries. Did another Earth ship once probe out of the galaxy as we intend to do? What happened to it out there? Is this some warning they've left behind?
...
SPOCK: Decoding memory banks. I'll try to interpolate. The Valiant had encountered a magnetic space storm and was being swept in this direction.
KIRK: The old impulse engines weren't strong enough.
SPOCK: Swept past this point, about a half light year out of the galaxy, they were thrown clear, turned, and headed back into the galaxy here.

I have the Valiant (using old impulse engines, i.e. not warp drive) being sweep out of the galaxy by the magnetic space storm starting from some spot much closer to Sol/Alpha Centauri space. This starting location would be more in line to the surprise by Kirk in his log that an Earth vessel ever ventured out that far, which was never the ship's original plan. As discussed in other threads from The Galileo Seven, the magnetic potential effect of a magnetic space storm can propel a ship at FTL speeds multiplied geometrically.

 

[Falconer]

That makes a lot more sense.

 

[blssdwlf]

I have the Valiant (using old impulse engines, i.e. not warp drive) being sweep out of the galaxy by the magnetic space storm starting from some spot much closer to Sol/Alpha Centauri space. This starting location would be more in line to the surprise by Kirk in his log that an Earth vessel ever ventured out that far, which was never the ship's original plan. As discussed in other threads from The Galileo Seven, the magnetic potential effect of a magnetic space storm can propel a ship at FTL speeds multiplied geometrically.

It's not really propelling as much as being moved along the magnetic current. Remember that the Galileo is not propelled through the Murasaki effect and shot out of it with FTL speed. Instead it was pulled at FTL speed right smack into the heart of it and dumped onto one of the planets. So if they were closer to Earth then the ion storm might've been a massive one that extended thousands of light years for the Valiant to ride it to the edge of the galaxy. But I still am firmly in the FTL impulse camp so the Valiant could've been a thousand light years from Earth before it got swept away.

 

[drt]

One thing that never jibed for me about ANY of the maps was how the Romulan and Klingon empires were placed roughly next to each other, roughly the same distance from the central UFP. According to older canon (pre-TNG), official first contact with the Klingons wasn't until the first decade of the 23rd Century, a half-century or more after the war with the Romulans. So I think the Klingon Empire should have been placed 'farther back' on the map than the Romulan Empire, although it would be totally possible for them to share a partial border, or at least be in relative proximity enough for prior contact and their own conflicts.

Agreed. Before the official maps and becoming another Galactic superpower in TNG, I always imagined the Romulans inhabited a small region relatively close to the Federation core worlds. This worked for me because in TOS, they always seemed more of minor power that kept to themselves.

On a related note, I never really liked how most of the maps portray the various powers like they're Earth countries. Federation space is always totally huge, you're telling me that all of the planets within those borders chose to join the UFP? I think it would be more likely that it would be a series of spherical regions, with patrolled spacelanes connecting them (sort of like those organic chemistry ball-and-stick models).

 

[C.E. Evans]

I imagined Federation space as something of a Rorschach Inkblot in shape, wider in some sections and narrower in others, with perhaps even holes (nonaligned space) in it. Being an irregular shape, the edge of the Federation space could be only a few light-years away or thousands of light-years away, depending on where you are within it, IMO.

I figured that one of the reasons for the early conflicts between the Federation, the Klingons, and the Romulans was because all three nations were in relatively close proximity to one another and sometimes clashed over their respective expansion efforts. Both the Klingons and the Romulans may have been particularly aggravated by the Federation if it had blocked them from laying claim to some sectors they otherwise would have free access to if it wasn't around.

 

[Jedi Marso]

Agreed. Before the official maps and becoming another Galactic superpower in TNG, I always imagined the Romulans inhabited a small region relatively close to the Federation core worlds. This worked for me because in TOS, they always seemed more of minor power that kept to themselves.

Actually, this is more accurate than what I said. Rather than moving the Klingon Empire farther back on the chart, the Romulan Empire should have been moved closer to the original (central) UFP sphere.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Agreed. Before the official maps and becoming another Galactic superpower in TNG, I always imagined the Romulans inhabited a small region relatively close to the Federation core worlds. This worked for me because in TOS, they always seemed more of minor power that kept to themselves.

On a related note, I never really liked how most of the maps portray the various powers like they're Earth countries. Federation space is always totally huge, you're telling me that all of the planets within those borders chose to join the UFP? I think it would be more likely that it would be a series of spherical regions, with patrolled spacelanes connecting them (sort of like those organic chemistry ball-and-stick models).

Federation Space only seems huge in their local context, when compared to "The Dominion" & "The Borg", the UFP seems like a small 3rd rate power.

I imagined Federation space as something of a Rorschach Inkblot in shape, wider in some sections and narrower in others, with perhaps even holes (nonaligned space) in it. Being an irregular shape, the edge of the Federation space could be only a few light-years away or thousands of light-years away, depending on where you are within it, IMO.

Too bad we only have a 2D Projection of territory.

I would love to see the 3D model of UFP Territory. I doubt it would be as smooth & simple as the 2D projection.

Spoiler: 24th Century map of the Milky Way post Voyager's return

 

[C.E. Evans]

Too bad we only have a 2D Projection of territory.

We don't even have that really. If you go online, you'll find that most maps of the Galaxy are fan-made and are personal takes on where things should be. And the few maps that have appeared onscreen in Trek are generally very localized and don't show us anywhere near the full picture.