I can't believe there isn't an attachment formed between apprentice and master after spending so many years together. There was clearly an attachment between Obi-Wan and Anakin.
Spoilers The Jedi: Good? Bad? Where do we see them?
- Thread starter fireproof78
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I can't believe there isn't an attachment formed between apprentice and master after spending so many years together. There was clearly an attachment between Obi-Wan and Anakin.
Which makes the Jedi liars.
You are allowed attachments, but you are suppose to be able to let go. That was the lesson Yoda was teaching Anakin when he gave him Ahsoka as a padawan. The lesson failed.
Dooku knew he was from a well off family. When he was fed up with the Jedi, he went back to this planet and claimed his title and prestige.
Dooku knew he was from a well off family. When he was fed up with the Jedi, he went back to this planet and claimed his title and prestige.
Mostly because the Jedi failed to show empathy. "Mourn them do not. Miss them do not. " sounds very calloused to a wounded soul.
Let's not forget the first half of that statement is "Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force."
This is a healthy attitude, especially for someone who's lived for almost 900 years surrounded by those that often don't make it to 100. It doesn't say they must not care about each other, it says they must not dwell on the loss when it comes, or wallow in self pity. To celebrate life, not fear death as one would an adversary.
Remember that The Jedi kinda know for a fact that when they die, they become one with the cosmic force. It's not a matter of faith to them, they can literally feel it. Mourning the loss of someone close in this context is an inherently selfish and possessive act. Feeling as if something that's "theirs" has been snatched away, where in reality a friend has gone onto the next stage of their journey. A Jedi must always be selfless and live for others, to serve the greater whole.
This is really the key difference that defines the Sith; they do fear death, they do endlessly mourn losses, try to hold onto people as possessions, and they do not believe that the cosmic force awaits them after death, only oblivion. The Sith cannot be compassionate because they always put their own needs, desires and passions before all others. Selfish.
Of course it does. But, there's a different in how one approaches it, which I'll touch on further down below. But, as the Jedi would say, it's all a matter of point of view. Of course power needs moderation, and a sense of control. But how you approach teaching that moderation cannot always be uniform.
Here's the key point of my post: it sounds very calloused to a wounded soul. Yoda's teaching is sound in a way to people who are bound to this idea that they are selfless and knowledge of the outcome of death. But, for Anakin, he cannot see that in that moment which means that Yoda's advice sounds very hollow.
True, but again, compassion has to start somewhere and how Yoda approached Anakin was compassionate for the more common Jedi. Not for one on whom the fate of the Order rested.
And that is a failing of Anakin, not Yoda. He's so consumed by his fear of death that he refuses to truly listen. He's being controlled by his emotions instead of actually dealing with them, hence the possessiveness, the frustration and the constant lashing out whenever things don't go his way.
Also let's remember the context of this scene: nobody has actually died here. He's talking about premonitions of death. Not the same thing.
Yoda is being compassionate; he's trying to teach Anakin to let go of his attachments so he won't be tortured by these feelings of loss. It's 100% self inflicted.
Would they not be the same thing to a Jedi? Distressing at least?
He's really not. He's trying to teach without understanding. Basically, Anakin goes on unheard, the Jedi shaking their head, "If only he'd listen." and move along. Anakin bears 100% responsibility for his choices but the Jedi treated him both as the special one and like a regular Jedi. It was incongruent mixed messaging resulting in a lot of problems.
Yoda is being compassionate, in his own way. It just doesn't land with Anakin and comes across as callous and dismissive.
Always in motion is the future.
Who understand loss more than Yoda? Can one have any idea how much death he's seen? How many Jedi he first knew as infants did he see die old and wised, or die young in the service of others?
This kind of detachment is the same kind of thing Doctors in the real world have to deal with in order to function. It's not a lack of caring, it's as Yoda says: training oneself to let go. To move on once the moment has passed.
It's really not. Anakin just isn't listening. All he's thinking about it "how can I stop this?" because to him, everything is a battle to be won.
This is a consistent character trait with him. After Ahsoka left, he didn't feel any sense of responsibility, he actually blamed HER for letting HIM down. Because of course his Padawan being betrayed by a friend, abandoned by the Order, and pursued like a criminal (by him!) is all about HIM.
It's the same with the visions; they're warnings about the path he's on. He's the cause of the death he sees, precisely because he can't let go. Not because he's worried about Padme, because he's worried about HIM. His feelings. His loss. He literally says "I won't loose you". That's some very deliberate phrasing on GL's part.
Just compare Anakin's attitude to Padme's when he tells her what he's seen; her first and only concern is the baby(s). He doesn't even seem to care about that aspect of it. Once she's semi-reassured the baby isn't in immediate danger she accepts it and moves on.
Padme does exactly what Yoda says Anakin should do. Be willing to let go. She would willingly give her life for him or the child, while he would rather slaughter others to try and keep her. It's no coincidence that his final act of redemption is to sacrifice his life for another. The "wounded soul" Anakin as you describe him would never do that; not even for Padme, because despite everything else, he still values himself above her.
THAT is what a paucity of compassion really looks like.
I'm not arguing that at all. I'm saying how it appeared to Anakin and the lack of awareness in to how it will be accepted.
Again, I'm looking at it from Anakin's point of view and how to access it. It really is callous because it doesn't connect with him. And the real struggle is that, at least in the novels, Obi-Wan sees this trait in Anakin and just accepts it as a flaw.
The Jedi, for all their wisdom, fail to connect with Anakin to acknowledge his fears and tell him "just let go." Sounds about as sympathetic and compassionate as the person who went up to my friend 3 months after her husband passed and asked "Are you still sad about that?"
My reading of the Jedi was that, by the time of the Prequels, they had shut themselves up in an ivory tower out of fear of the Dark Side.
If they had kept in touch with their feelings, and-yes-even their so-called "baser natures", they would have had the tools to identify Palpatine as a Sith much earlier, and also to train Anakin properly, and save him from the Dark Side...
If they had kept in touch with their feelings, and-yes-even their so-called "baser natures", they would have had the tools to identify Palpatine as a Sith much earlier, and also to train Anakin properly, and save him from the Dark Side...
I vaguely recall something from the novels or comics or somewhere, that parents of Force-sensitive kids could choose not to have the Jedi order take their children. But as Billj pointed out, there are lots of poor, backwater planets. So even if it was entirely optional, many families may have felt that their kids would have a much better life in the Jedi Order.
Or there may have been times when a family was afraid of their kid's Force abilities and saw them as some kind of freak (not unlike when youngsters started exhibiting mutant powers in X-Men) so gladly sent them away to get rid of them, that way they wouldn't have to deal with them anymore. That was part of Dooku's backstory if I recall correctly. But I'm not sure if that was incorporated into new 'cannnnnnon' or if it was relegated to 'Legends.'
Kor
My favorite book, Revenge of the Sith, described the Jedi as very much out of touch. They had a mission to fight for democracy, but ended up fighting for The Republic. Well, the Republic was a corrupt institution, not unlike ancient Rome. And the Jedi had become detached from the people of the Republic and served the institution of the Republic, striving to prevent the last catastrophic war. And, unwittingly, falling in to a new trap.
Anakin was not the only Jedi to lose someone he cared for. Take Obi-Wan: he watched his father figure / best friend Qui-Gon viciously cut down in front of his own eyes, and he was powerless to prevent it or save Jinn, yet as time moved forward, he had to accept the reality of heartbreaking tragedy (and know Jinn became one with the Force) and not obsess on the idea that no one should ever die / being powerful "enough" to stop death, which was one of Anakin's endless, misguided beliefs.
Anakin's alleged "Chosen One" status never included stopping people from dying, but he relentlessly refused to listen to those who were trying to get him to understand that the death of those closest to you are indeed awful, but it is not the loved ones wiped from existence into nothingness. From Yoda's ROTS statements, he was trying to make Anakin understand what--I assume--every other Jedi has come to accept (about destiny after physical death).
Indeed he was not, but he was pushed in to a special status of "Chosen One." He acknowledges this and says "I'm not the Jedi I should be," yet they keep treating him like he should be more. He should be more powerful, more wise, more capable, more willing to listen. The Jedi created the problem and reinforced his deficits and he ran to find more power to become more and Palpatine preyed on it.
Yoda was trying to force understanding without recognizing the compassion needed to reach Anakin.
The Jedi were Masters of a slave army, and Clone Wars made it clear that they were treated as deserters if they tried to escape the army. They are pretty horrible actually.
The entire Republic was a corrupt hell hole. The Separatists were in fact correct in their Assessment that the Republic needs to be shattered into 1000 pieces. They just did not realize that their own leadership was corrupted as well.
The entire Republic was a corrupt hell hole. The Separatists were in fact correct in their Assessment that the Republic needs to be shattered into 1000 pieces. They just did not realize that their own leadership was corrupted as well.
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One of the key features of the Clone Wars is that neither side were entirely in the wrong, and neither side were entirely in the right.
The Republic Senate was almost hopelessly corrupt, mostly because of lobbying from the commerce guilds to decrease/eliminate taxes and levies on their trade, deregulate business and banking practices. You know, the kind of stuff that only serve to enrich the elite and the unscrupulous, mostly enriching the already fat and complacent core systems.
The thing of it is that the Seperatists were no better. While the people of the mid-rim and colonies were likely sold on the message that their voices weren't being heard and that the Republic was hopelessly corrupt; The people of the core were equally sold on the message that the Separatists were out to destroy the Republic and take everything for themselves.
Indeed, both messages are essentially true since for many in power within the Separatist Alliance, the motivations were much more selfish than the official line. They wanted more wealth and control for themselves, to be able to have their own little fiefdoms without of oversight of the Republic stopping them from doing whatever they wanted to line their pockets.
This is how Palpatine was able to puppet both sides; he deliberate split the Republic into two camps that were both a mix of idealists and opportunists. For every Bail Organa or Mon Mothma, the Republic had a Orn Free Taa, for every Mina Bonteri or Avi Singh, the Separatists had a Sanjay Rash. Both sides had people dedicated to making the galaxy a better place, both sides had people actively trying to enrich themselves from the conflict.
It's no accident that both sides used disposable soldiers on the front lines. No body bags being sent home, not grieving families or crippled veterans to hamper support for the war . . . and as a nice bonus, nobody to report back about war crimes. Plus it was a handy way to test out is clones or droids would make the best Stormtroopers for the Empire (wheels within wheels and all that.)
So yeah, the Republic was riddled with corruption and needed *massive* reforms, but the Separatists were just more of the same. Hell, they jumped right into bed with the very commerce guilds that were the cause of most of the corruption in the first place!
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