Spoilers 'Obi-Wan Kenobi' series [Spoiler Discussion]

[Xerxes82]

"When I left you I was but the learner, now I am the Master."

That sounds like Mustafar to me. Given if they fight now Obi Wan's not only older, but he's been consciously supressing his powers, hasn't even fought with a lightsabre in years? Possibly not for ten years realistically. Meanwhile presumably Vader's been focusing on learning about the Dark side and hacking people down left right and centre on a weekly basis. It's hard to see Kenobi as a Master and Vader as a pupil in that scenario.

You know what that line sounds like to me? Like somebody arrogant who didn't win a fight and now needs to justify that to himself. It's something a bully says when they've gotten their own butt kicked and somehow needs to square that circle.

Doesn't tell me anything about timing, or location. Just that the last time they faced each other Obi-wan won. Or at least, Vader didn't win (the more likely scenario).

Frankly, it may work even better after a second loss. Because one could just be a bad day you were having. And Mustafar was definitely a bad day for Vader. But two? Two is a pattern. Two is someone being legit better than you. Particularly if this version of Obi-wan, who is clearly not at his best, is the one doing it. That's when rationalizations start.

 

[Reverend]

Mustafar wasn't a thing when that line was written. They made the Mustafar scenes to retroactively look like the line is referring to them, perhaps, but certainly not the other way round. So nothing in ANH to prevent a meeting that is equally, or better, described by that line. It wasn't even delivered as dramatically as deserving to be referring to Mustafar. He was chopped into pieces and left for dead, they haven't met since, and all he got is “I was but the learner, now I am the master”? No, were are missing a rage fit in which Vader tries to chop Obi-Wan and fails in-between.

The idea of Vader fighting Obi-Wan and falling into a lava-pit being the reason why he has the suit goes at least as far back as pre-production on RotJ (it's even in the novelization) and the notion of Vader's castle being on a lava world goes back to VERY early pre-production on tESB, so it's not something invented whole-cloth for the prequels. But yes, when ANH was developed the intention was VERY different.
For one thing Anakin and Vader were two different people, "Darth" was actually his first name, the Jedi purge was a more gradual affair with Vader pulling a Sauron, still playing the part of a Jedi so he could lure them one by one and murder them. So I think it's entirely fair to alter the context of those lines, since the later OT movies did that anyway.

Just for the sake of clarity though, let's actually take a look at what is said: -

Vader: I sense something. A presence I've not felt since . . .

Vader: He is here.
Tarkin: Obi-Wan Kenobi? What makes you think so?
Vader: A tremor in the Force. The last time I felt it was in the presence of my old master.

Vader: I've been waiting for you, Obi-Wan. We meet again at last. The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner. Now / am the master.
Ben: Only a master of evil, Darth.

Note that there's nothing there to indicate when they last met. That's just an assumption we've (quite reasonably) been working under. He doesn't say "the last time we met I was but the learner", he says: "when I left you . . .etc etc". That just means when he stopped being his pupil. Same thing for sensing Kenobi's presence; he didn't say when the last time was, just that it was the last time he was in his presence.

Honestly, as much as I would not have gone this way if it were up to me; there's nothing here that directly contradicts what's likely to happen on the show. Same thing with Leia's message; she doesn't mention the time they last met because it's not the point: she's not asking Obi-Wan to come for her, she's relaying her father's request for him. More than that she's not a girl talking to the hero that once saved her to come help her again, she a Senator addressing a legendary Jedi General, requesting on behalf of her father that he join the cause. So yeah, of course her language would reflect that. Leia is still a politician and a diplomat after all.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

He’s like Hamil. He is very well known in both Star Wars and DC Comics circles

Also nuBSG (he played Crashdown) and Trek (a Xindi on ENT).

 

[Starkers]

Don't get me wrong, a third Obi Wan/Anakin duel does make a lot of sense, especially given this would have the potential to be the most balanced fight between them. In ROTS Obi Wan clearly has the upper hand, for all Anakin's raw power Kenobi is the one with way more experience and the one in control of his feelings. But by ANH Vader is at the height of his powers whilst Obi Wan is older and slower. Right now they might be on a par with one another.

Of course the downside is that we know how any fight is going pan out. Which doesn't mean they can't make it interesting of course.

 

[matthunter]

"When I left you I was but the learner, now I am the Master."

That sounds like Mustafar to me. Given if they fight now Obi Wan's not only older, but he's been consciously supressing his powers, hasn't even fought with a lightsabre in years? Possibly not for ten years realistically. Meanwhile presumably Vader's been focusing on learning about the Dark side and hacking people down left right and centre on a weekly basis. It's hard to see Kenobi as a Master and Vader as a pupil in that scenario.

Vader may keep up his training, but he's lacking skilled opponents unless Palpatine ever feels like sparring. You don't improve much without challenge. Apart from Obi-Wan and Yoda, it's not clear that any Jedi on a par with Anakin even survived Order 66 - the Inquisitors seem to largely be whacking Padawans or Knights, not Masters. And Vader trained the Inquisitors (or rather broke them of their Jedi training so they would be aggressive in battle) so they don't hold much of a challenge for him.

 

[yotsuya]

There were so many high points and so few nitpicks I have. These were two great episodes. I'm not a fan of the Inquisitors, but they were pulled off quite well here. Their look is as cheesy as it was in Rebels, but the evil is there. They are a bit over the the top, but very dangerous. The high point for me was Leia. The young actress is the spitting image of young Carrie Fisher and I feel they modeled her lines after a young Carrie as well. She is a wild child whose force abilities are quite active and already Bail and Breha are trying to reign her in and give her the control and refinement to turn that wildness into the collected and powerful young princess we see in the OT and the General we see in the ST. These two episodes had me mesmerized and I thoroughly enjoyed them.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Like Michael from The Godfather, I thought I was out, then they pulled me back in.

I really struggled with Boba Fett from beginning to end and the trailers didn’t impress me much for this show but… just watched episode 1 and it’s really, really nice I think. EW is as great as pretty much everyone knew he would be but little Leia is lovely as well isn’t she?

I’ve never liked Red Hot Chilli Peppers and now Flea swatted a cool, cute droid I like them less.

Just really nice stuff all round. My wife loved it too after also being lukewarm on TBOBF. Great stuff.

The ladybug droid looked pretty much exactly like the robots from classic 80s movie Batteries Not Included.

 

[Shawnster]

I'm sorry, but I don't see Vader believing that, 10 years after Mustafar, that he's still "a learner.". With Anakin's attitude, he'd feel he was a master the moment he struck down his first Jedi post ROTS.

 

[Tuskin38]

Also nuBSG (he played Crashdown) and Trek (a Xindi on ENT).

And he voiced Tenavik in Star Trek Online because Kenneth couldn't record. He was personally chosen by Kenneth to replace him, they're apparently good friends.

 

[Set Harth]

She was, and an unusually good actor for a kid in Star Wars !

that's a low bar

 

[Crewman6]

Remember Anakins memory is fractured. Falling to the dark side he lost pretty much all he was. Also at this point in his career as Vader he may still be learning the secrets of the dark side.

That feels like a huge stretch.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Obi-Wan whooped Maul's ass just a few years before. By that time, he was obviously practicing again.

That happens after the events of Obi-Wan Kenobi.

 

[Crewman6]

Mustafar wasn't a thing when that line was written. They made the Mustafar scenes to retroactively look like the line is referring to them, perhaps, but certainly not the other way round. So nothing in ANH to prevent a meeting that is equally, or better, described by that line. It wasn't even delivered as dramatically as deserving to be referring to Mustafar. He was chopped into pieces and left for dead, they haven't met since, and all he got is “I was but the learner, now I am the master”? No, were are missing a rage fit in which Vader tries to chop Obi-Wan and fails in-between.

Yes, imagine that. Mustafar/ROTS was written to match what came first.

Obi Wan was not written to match that and, in fact, is overriding the intent of the original scene.

 

[CorporalClegg]

This whole argument perfectly illustrates why strict and literal adherence to 'canon' is silly and futile. Because here's the thing: Vader jumbling up events is perfectly explainable in-universe. And not because of the Force, or darkside corruption or any of that, but because that's just how humans work.

 

[matthunter]

That happens after the events of Obi-Wan Kenobi.

I think he's referring to the final duel on the Death Star - Kenobi had fought Maul a few years prior to THAT, so was obviously NOT out of practice in his final confrontation (hence the "by that time").

 

[Reverend]

This whole argument perfectly illustrates why strict and literal adherence to 'canon' is silly and futile. Because here's the thing: Vader jumbling up events is perfectly explainable in-universe. And not because of the Force, or darkside corruption or any of that, but because that's just how humans work.

Exactly. People are by their very nature, unreliable narrators, especially when it comes to their own stories.

For example: it's entirely possible that there never was a Sith Lord called "Darth Plagueis The Wise", and even if there was, it's also still possible that he never did anything like screwing with midichlorians, creating life, or staving off death. Palpatine could have just pulled the whole story out of his arse. And that's fine.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

Yes, imagine that. Mustafar/ROTS was written to match what came first.

And, surprisingly, so is Obi-Wan Kenobi.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I'm sorry, but I don't see Vader believing that, 10 years after Mustafar, that he's still "a learner.". With Anakin's attitude, he'd feel he was a master the moment he struck down his first Jedi post ROTS.

"When I left you" doesn't necessarily mean "when I was last in your presence." "When I left you" could mean simply "when I stopped being your student" or "when I stopped aligning myself with your side." Or "when I stopped thinking of you as my mentor" or "when I abandoned you because you were no longer my friend."

 

[Set Harth]

I’ve never liked Red Hot Chilli Peppers and now Flea swatted a cool, cute droid I like them less.

You must have been disappointed that we didn't get to see bloody chopped-up Flea chunks.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I'm sorry, but I don't see Vader believing that, 10 years after Mustafar, that he's still "a learner.". With Anakin's attitude, he'd feel he was a master the moment he struck down his first Jedi post ROTS.

Agreed. He was not a "learner" the last time Vader faced or left Obi-Wan, whether that time is before or immediately after his turn to the dark side. He was confident in the view that he already had his "new powers", and more powerful than Obi-Wan (whoops!). Now, some might argue that in his mind, Vader believed he (retconned ROTS crap inserted) still had much to learn by the time of his duel with Obi-Wan, but that's a big stretch based on what was noted here: Vader believed he was superior to any Jedi and could overthrow the emperor. That does not register as someone thinking they were a "learner" of any kind.