Why does Harry Kim never get promoted?

[Guy Gardener]

I think the only reason why Sisko was still a commander when bringing the Defiant was because it was still an experimental prototype. It had design flaws and issues until they were worked out and she proved herself that season. Then they were starting to produce Defiant class ships.

One Defiant does not take out a Borg Cube.

Methinks they were initially designed to fight together in wings of 10 or 20.

That means we have a Fleet Captain in charge of the fighter group, but probably not a full Captain assigned to every ship in the wing.

Logically therefore, a Commander can take a lone unassigned Defiant Class ship out for a tour no questions asked.

Or maybe just a few questions.

 

[Oddish]

Somethings to reinforce the idea that only captains can captain, though, are the temporary demotion Kirk gets in the first movie (but not in the second!) and the promotion Riker gets in BoBW but gets reverted in Family with no mention.

Riker's promotion could have been made permanent, easy peasy. He just completes the arc his character followed in BoBW, takes his own command. Alas, Jonathan Frakes was just too popular to dispense with.

think the only reason why Sisko was still a commander when bringing the Defiant was because it was still an experimental prototype. It had design flaws and issues until they were worked out and she proved herself that season. Then they were starting to produce Defiant class ships.

It was an escort ship, probably not intended to operate alone. Either it was intended to escort a capital ship like the enterprise, or intended to run as part of a wolf pack, like @Guy Gardener suggested. As it was, the ship was basically attached to DS9, and part of Sisko's greater command.

 

[Farscape One]

She was officially classified as an escort. But unofficially, she was a warship. Sisko said this in "THE SEARCH, PART I" during the briefing at the beginning.

But good points about it likely needing to be part of a larrger group. It makes sense.

 

[Oddish]

Kira described the Defiant best when she described how one of Starfleet's biggest and most versatile craft was demolished by the Jem'Hadar. The Defiant didn't have Galaxy Class versatility, but she was fast, maneuverable, tough, and packed a punch. And if one of her was formidable, imagine what ten or twenty of her could do, especially carrying out a coordinated battle plan. A whole lotta Jem'Hadar would utter their last "Victory is life".

 

[Guy Gardener]

Kira described the Defiant best when she described how one of Starfleet's biggest and most versatile craft was demolished by the Jem'Hadar. The Defiant didn't have Galaxy Class versatility, but she was fast, maneuverable, tough, and packed a punch. And if one of her was formidable, imagine what ten or twenty of her could do, especially carrying out a coordinated battle plan. A whole lotta Jem'Hadar would utter their last "Victory is life".

I agree.

The reasons that small fighters don't work in Star Trek is that ships are shooting each other successfully from a range of 40 thousand kilometers, while moving at 1/4 the speed of light.

Being small doesn't matter.

You need full sized shields to survive a firefight, and full sized phasers to make a dent in the enemy, which is all the Defiant is.

 

[jackoverfull]

One Defiant does not take out a Borg Cube.

Methinks they were initially designed to fight together in wings of 10 or 20.

That means we have a Fleet Captain in charge of the fighter group, but probably not a full Captain assigned to every ship in the wing.

Logically therefore, a Commander can take a lone unassigned Defiant Class ship out for a tour no questions asked.

Or maybe just a few questions.

it makes sense. Also we’ve seen when data takes command of a ship while deploying a net to intercept romulans, how in case of emergency it can happen for lesser officers to command a ship.

 

[Oddish]

What matters is the ratio of firepower generated to resources required, both for construction and operation. The Defiant might have less firepower than, say, the Enterprise E. But with the resources required to build and crew one Sovereign, you could probably put half a dozen Defiant class escorts into play.

Of course, given the number of the little ships that probably would get blasted from the heavens, a Defiant class squadron is probably promotion city. If the subject of this topic had been posted to one, he'd probably have received a couple of battlefield promotions (those who saw the "Starship Troopers" movie know how rapidly this can happen), or his remains would be dispersing in interstellar space. Given his "indestructible redshirt" status, either would be conceivable.

 

[Guy Gardener]

What matters is the ratio of firepower generated to resources required, both for construction and operation. The Defiant might have less firepower than, say, the Enterprise E. But with the resources required to build and crew one Sovereign, you could probably put half a dozen Defiant class escorts into play.

Of course, given the number of the little ships that probably would get blasted from the heavens, a Defiant class squadron is probably promotion city. If the subject of this topic had been posted to one, he'd probably have received a couple of battlefield promotions (those who saw the "Starship Troopers" movie know how rapidly this can happen), or his remains would be dispersing in interstellar space. Given his "indestructible redshirt" status, either would be conceivable.

But what happens 5 years later during Peace Time?

Hundreds of Defiants you can't send anywhere because it looks like an act of war, and they can't even do the most basic science mission.

Take out the phasers and use them as tugboats for freight maybe?

 

[Oddish]

But what happens 5 years later during Peace Time?

Mothball some, retrofit a few for deep space surveys, outfit a few more with science labs, and have a strong presence patrolling assorted neutral zones. Maybe build the latest capital ships with a port for a Defiant to ride as parasite craft. So if trouble starts, instead of separating the saucer, separate the Defiant.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Mothball some, retrofit a few for deep space surveys, outfit a few more with science labs, and have a strong presence patrolling assorted neutral zones. Maybe build the latest capital ships with a port for a Defiant to ride as parasite craft. So if trouble starts, instead of separating the saucer, separate the Defiant.

The Saucer separation was so that the civilian families could run away, not for any tactical advantage. Years later Multi Vector Assault mode was stupid too. the ship pulled apart so that they phasers batteries were now a whole twenty feet away from each other. Sigh.

Either Shelby forgot about the families, or Shelby is the Queen from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.

They made a big deal about how the Galaxy Class saucer section only had impulse engines, but the Captain's Yacht was berthed in the Saucer Section which is both intimidating and warp capable.

 

[Farscape One]

But if you have a Defiant class ship with you, there would be no need to seperate the saucer. She can go and fight and protect the capital ship while it either warps away or fights alongside.

Never underestimate how valuable a strong offense can be in creating a good defense.

 

[Oddish]

Precisely. I think Starfleet could keep at least some of its Defiants busy in peacetime.

I think I read somewhere that Harry and Neelix tied for most neglected character... each had only six shows dedicated to them. Other characters had way more. And while Neelix certainly was underused, at least his journey was brought to a satisfying close. We still don't know what happened with Tuvok, Torres, the EMH, or Harry.

EDIT: Multiple choice time.
Harry Kim...
A. Suffered like Chief O'Brien did.
B. Got shafted career-wise like Data did.
C. Had miserable luck in love like Worf did.
D. All of the above.

 

[jackoverfull]

The Saucer separation was so that the civilian families could run away, not for any tactical advantage. Years later Multi Vector Assault mode was stupid too. the ship pulled apart so that they phasers batteries were now a whole twenty feet away from each other. Sigh.

the multi vector assault mode meant that the ship could attack from multiple angles at the same time, becoming a small fleet. It made much more sense than the saucer separation, for me.

Also, the saucer is supposedly incapable of warp, as it has no nacelles, but it’s never said on screen that it can’t go at warp and in fact in encounter at farpoint it somehow maintains warp speed.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

One building that is not the branch of service.

Yes, which is why it's credible that such a facility would be commanding by a senior officer (cf the RW https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Reed_National_Military_Medical_Center), whereas an entire medical service would be commanded by a Surgeon General flag officer, which we know from TOS is a role that exists in Starfleet. References to the same posting are included in Robert Fletcher's notes for the TOS movies: https://www.st-spike.org/pages/uniforms/2278-2350/divisions.htm

 

[Guy Gardener]

the multi vector assault mode meant that the ship could attack from multiple angles at the same time, becoming a small fleet. It made much more sense than the saucer separation, for me.

Also, the saucer is supposedly incapable of warp, as it has no nacelles, but it’s never said on screen that it can’t go at warp and in fact in encounter at farpoint it somehow maintains warp speed.

It can't generate a warp bubble, but maybe it can sustain a warp bubble, but can the saucer separate at warp?

 

[jackoverfull]

That’s the commonly accepted fan reasoning. It’s not canon at all, but it explains it, at least.

And yes, it can separate at warp: it clearly does so in the pilot.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Yes, which is why it's credible that such a facility would be commanding by a senior officer (cf the RW https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Reed_National_Military_Medical_Center), whereas an entire medical service would be commanded by a Surgeon General flag officer, which we know from TOS is a role that exists in Starfleet. References to the same posting are included in Robert Fletcher's notes for the TOS movies: https://www.st-spike.org/pages/uniforms/2278-2350/divisions.htm

Beverly was the Starfleet Surgeon General.

The Starfleet Surgeon General is also called the Director of Starfleet Medical, so why can't they also be called the Head of Star fleet Medical?

For 30 years I have never thought that Bev was not the highest officer commanding all the Doctors in Starfleet.

 

[Guy Gardener]

That’s the commonly accepted fan reasoning. It’s not canon at all, but it explains it, at least.

And yes, it can separate at warp: it clearly does so in the pilot.

I felt like I'd seen that happen, but when I Googled it, there was a nothing on point.

Although, they thought it was super dangerous so maybe the next three ships that tried to separate at warp blew the f#ck up, and now no one's allowed to do it again?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Beverly was the Starfleet Surgeon General.

No, she wasn't. That would be ridiculous. Given that there are active duty physicians (such as Dalen Quaice, her own mentor) who have been in practice for decades longer than she had.

The Starfleet Surgeon General is also called the Director of Starfleet Medical,

Only in fan projects. In the canon, there is Starfleet Medical (the organisation which sets policy and manages medical operations for the fleet, possibly Starfleet Medical Corps or Medical Command, which is controlled as in reality by the Surgeon General) and Starfleet Medical (the location, referenced directly at least twice and ambiguously on several occasions when characters talk about something happening "at Starfleet Medical", formally Starfleet Medical Center [San Francisco*], but shortened to Starfleet Medical in the same way that "Operations Center" often becomes "Ops")

so why can't they also be called the Head of Starfleet Medical?

Because the location clearly exists (it was originally the Earth Starfleet Medical Center in the 2150s (known as Starfleet Medical)*), and it having a commander/manager for day-to-day operations separate from the flag officer who commands the entire corps is entirely consistent with RW practice and presents far less of the issue that you highlighted for Crusher's career.

For 30 years I have never thought that Bev was not the highest officer commanding all the Doctors in Starfleet.

You're not the only one by any means, however IMO this doesn't make sense given the reasons above, and I see no advantage to assuming that she was promoted to such a lofty position when a far more plausible option exists that equally fits the evidence.

*Klaang was being treated there by Phlox et al when Archer first encountered him.

 

[FederationHistorian]

* If Troi, Geordi, Ogawa, Worf, Dax, Bashir, Sisko, Tuvok, and Tom can get promoted without changing jobs, so can Harry.

But all of them have experience some sort of personal tragedy in their life. Harry hasn’t. He lived a rather sheltered and unchallenged life without any personal tragedy to speak of. And while that’s the ideal of the 24th century, its also problematic. As literally everyone else in Starfleet, dating all the way back to Kirk’s time and even further back to Archer’s, experiences some sort of personal hardships.

That probably the point Janeway is making by not promoting him. If the worst personal tragedy Harry has experienced in his life is lack of career advancement, he has it really good even by 24th century standards and has nothing to complain about. It also makes his complaints about wanting to be promoted look completely ridiculous as there’s more to life than just a career.