Saavik's Pregnancy
- Thread starter Captain59
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Well, the problem is that you're dealing with two non-canon versions of non-canon. Saavik shacking up with David comes from Vonda McIntyre's novelization of The Search for Spock, to which she added a great deal of padding; the film as we see it doesn't really start until about halfway through the book.
Saavik's pregnancy — cut from the script for Voyage Home — was based on the implication that she and Spock did the nasty when he was going through pon farr while on Genesis.
So I guess it's possible depending on which non-canon material you want to not accept as not part of the canon. Not.
Saavik's pregnancy — cut from the script for Voyage Home — was based on the implication that she and Spock did the nasty when he was going through pon farr while on Genesis.
So I guess it's possible depending on which non-canon material you want to not accept as not part of the canon. Not.
Yes, that is one of the other viable non-canon possibilities, though some say it is less likely; since some actual canon has established that Vulcan/Human mating is not so forthright. Enterprise (though dismissed as canon by some) was the first to establish this on screen. There is also an old recorded interview between Gene Roddenberry and Mark Lenard (in character as Ambassador Sarek) that indicates human/vulcan mating requires effort from the scientific/medical establishment. A lot of fans look to this as well. I personally like to think Spock's first reincarnative pon-farr wasn't quite the misfire.
addendum: Heh... I forgot to hit reply an hour and 1/2 ago. cardinal biggles is spot on.
addendum: Heh... I forgot to hit reply an hour and 1/2 ago. cardinal biggles is spot on.
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IIRC, after Spock had is Katra moved back into him - there was the scene when he was looking at all his crewmates - the scene where he looks at Saavik, and I think she avoids his gaze - almost embarrassingly, may possibly be on-screen evidence that there was something that happened between them back on Genesis.
Well, regardless of her eventual state of maternity, there is little doubt Saavik had to "ease" Spock through that turmoil. I think her reaction in that scene was played perfectly and for good reason. I personally love the idea that Spock impregnated her at the time, but unfortunately the plan was never fleshed out - no pun intended.
It's clearly established that the Pon Farr can only be stopped by combat to the death or mating...
He didn't kill her, that's for sure.
Eliminate all other factors, and the one which remains must be the truth.
He didn't kill her, that's for sure.
Eliminate all other factors, and the one which remains must be the truth.
Originally the plan for Star Trek VI was for Saavik to be the traitor, but Kristie Alley refused once again and I don't think they asked Robin Curtis (which I think is a shame, but I must be one of the few people who actually liked her as Saavik). So they made the character Valeris instead. I really wish that had been able to use Saavik for the role though, and if she had a child with Spock, that would make the betrayal even more powerful and heartbreaking for Spock. Also, I think it would have been much more of a surprise for the audience too since we had seen Saavik previously and many of us liked her character.
Then how do you reconcile these two things:
1- As was said above, pon farr ends in mating or combat
2- If they only do it once every seven years, when they DO do it, pregnancy had better be very very likely, or the species is going to die out
And as to number 2, any example of such a species which goes through a period of "heat" it is usually times with the females fertile period in order to insure breading.
I'd buy it if they sold it on eBay. I've always loved the half-Rommie backstory since I first heard about it. Same for Spock-Jr.
Well, pon farr usually happens between two partners that have been "synched" in some way. You know, the whole "Parted from me and never parted" thing. It is pretty likely that Saavik was not tuned to Spock's mating urges, but she obviously did what was necessary to save his life.
It is illogical to use birth control. Logic dictates that one should be fruitful and multiply for the good of the species... And one child every seven years sounds like a logical lineup...
We know that they endure Pon Farr every 7 years. I don't recall anything saying that this is the *only* time they have sex.
I liked her, too.
FYI, Memory Alpha has the story about Saavik not being the traitor in TUC a bit differently:
I always find this assertion a little confusing, because the very thing that was established about Pon Farr in "Amok Time" was that it could be resolved without either death or sex - both for Spock and for Stonn.
Indeed, based on that episode and all subsequent Pon Farr mentions, it seems that the anger thing and fighting is actually exceedingly rare in Pon Farr, and that the circumspect expression "mating urge" actually refers to choosing a mate, not to copulation with a mate. A Vulcan male who has already chosen a mate will want to reaffirm that selection (Tuvok on the Delta Quadrant) rather than find another random sex partner, while a so far unwed male will be happy after securing the affectations of a female, even if there is no sex. To be sure, we've never truly heard of a couple actually having sex at the completion of Pon Farr.
Doesn't mean a thing regarding whether Spock and Saavik had sex, of course. They might have had it independent of the Pon Farr thing - after all, Spock not only lived through a Pon Farr or three during his rapid aging, he also experienced the years in between. Perhaps that's actually when Vulcans usually have sex?
Yeah, I know that ENT "Bounty" basically describes the female Pon Farr as a straightforward copulation urge, in contrast with the male version. But since Saavik wasn't in that state, again this tells us little about whether she had sex with Spock.
Timo Saloniemi
Well, considering they both walked away without a scratch, that is certainly a valid point, but moot. Had either one of them actually fought the other it certainly would have resulted in death, but Kirk was the one that supposedly died for that erotic triangle. Also, McCoy seemed to indicate that had Spock not gotten back to Vulcan and "do what he gotta do," Spock would have died from the stress alone.
As for Stonn, He wasn't even going through the Pon Farr (dubious anyway.) In fact, T'Pring was probably totally free of it as well, especially if she had been shacking up with Stonn the whole time. The two of them were positively glowing, Spock was boiling, and Kirk was the one panting and bleeding.
Well, that might be part of the physiological basis, but the choosing of a mate is typically a means to an end. In the case of the Vulcans, the choosing had long since been taken care of by the culture of the Vulcan people. Spock's role in a choice (outside of fighting to win) was already taken care of by his and T'Pring's parents. T'Pring at least had some say in to whom she would eventually belong. I would even suggest that the death by combat thing was totally a contrivance of Vulcan culture based on many an ancient incident involving the powerful urges of lust and anger. And one cannot deny that some of the physiological expressions of lust don't overlap with those of anger and violence. (at least in terms of hormones, and blood pressure, etc...)
The anger and fighting thing might in fact be rare, especially if you are right there on the planet with your mate when the urges begin. But Spock was some light years from his "urge" when things started to swell. There is also some indication that Spock had been putting off the process for some time, but the instinctual drives were finally taking their toll.
I suspect any one of the 3 Vulcans we saw up to that point (Spock, Tuvok,Vorik ) could have mated with a tree trunk to end the madness if they simply would have, but their adherence to strict cultural morays and their conscious fixations prevented this. Maybe something similar to a little onset Vulcan Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder.
Ironic indeed. And a bummer.
This however, might be a splendid example of the purest Vulcan physiology at work. In each of the aforementioned instances, the Vulcan (in each case a male) entered Pon Farr while they were quite distant from their means of satiating the process, both culturally and physiologically. The young Genesis Spock was completely free any knowledge of the changes he was undergoing as well as any ceremonial bonding issues that would complicate the matter. He was simply experiencing it as it happened. Regardless of the level to which they took it, Saavik had to help Spock through the issue. That particular Pon Farr was his first (another indication that TOS spock had been putting things off for a time) Any subsequent Pon Farr would have occurred after the Klingons had taken them prisoner. After that the planet began to age more rapidly and things became totally chaotic. Who's to say that some of the agony the rapidly aging Spock was going through wasn't tied to some of those Pon Farr impulses? Eventually of course, rapidly aging Spock was unable to endure any of the experience and he was down for the count.
Indeed it neither confirms nor denies the action, it only indicates she would not have had any compulsion to mate with him outside of her obvious desire to save his life (worst case scenario) or simply ease his burden (best case scenario.) Heck, the little funky finger ritual may have been an instruction manual on how to masterbate, thus allowing him to take care of matters entirely on his own. (which would put a new spin on Sarek and Amanda's little finger touch, but I digress.) It is all speculation however, even though, I too love the scene at the end where she feels she must look away from him on Mt. Selaya. Very suggestive if not telling.
P.S. I must admit after writing all this and reviewing Timo's words further, It would be an interesting concept if Pon Farr (at least in males) was simply the choosing/reaffirming part of the process. It would be interesting if the males went through the "choosing urge" and females went through the "mating urge" and copulation occurred then. If they weren't perfectly synched it would make for even more interesting material. But every instance of Pon Farr that has been shown on the various Trek's seem to have slight inconsistencies, so we are left only to speculate really.
Trivial notes: There was never any indication that females even underwent Pon Farr until T'Pol on Enterprise. Conversely, there was never any indication that only males underwent it until Saavik specified "Vulcan males must endure it every seventh year..." in TheSearch For Spock.
The first non canonical tie-in to mention female pon farr was a two-part DC Comics "Origin of Saavik" story, which led up to their adaptation of ST III. In that, the writers speculated that, when Saavik was found on Hellguard and taken under Spock's wing, Sarek organised for her to be bonded with a young Vulcan called Xon - the name of the character who was to replace Spock in "ST: Phase II". When their time of mating hit, Xon was inconveniently on assignment in Romulan space.
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