Jennifer Lien

[fireproof78]

As much as I think Voyager-with-consequences would have been a better show, it could have also gone far too dark, a Stargate Universe equivalent of Star Trek and lasting about as long. I'm not sure they had the ability to be that subtle.

People say that but I just don't see that as being the default. It's not about subtlety but just taking a little more of a long view approach of the characters. Even with episodic TV I watch there is a still a small move by the actors to take those moments and build upon them.

Maybe it takes more skill than I think but there is still something to be said when you see the character do a small change.

 

[Oddish]

The real world doesn't have the option to just erase a mistake and redo or use a few commands and bring someone back from death.

True. But I would have thought that the point of the Doctor's program (as altered by B'Elanna) was to allow him to experience the day to day realities of having a family. His wife's job and Jeffrey's Klingon pals were elements of that, but Belle was an "every parent's worst nightmare" scenario.

I fault the show itself more than the episode for The Doctor not learnimg the lessons and applying them later.

VOYAGER smashed the reset button harder than even TNG. (That in itself is a feat.)

And due to this, it was the wrong show for an episode like "Real Life", as good as the premise was.

As much as I think Voyager-with-consequences would have been a better show, it could have also gone far too dark, a Stargate Universe equivalent of Star Trek and lasting about as long. I'm not sure they had the ability to be that subtle.

Given how good they were at counting to 38... I think you might have a point.

 

[at Quark's]

I fault the show itself more than the episode for The Doctor not learnimg the lessons and applying them later.

VOYAGER smashed the reset button harder than even TNG. (That in itself is a feat.)

It does have at least one advantage though: easier occasional (re)watchability. When I'm tired, and I just want an hour of TV before going to bed, I can quickly grab any TNG or VOY episode and watch it. Or a standalone DS9 episode.
However, most episodes of the 9-episode-arc DS9 finale, or most episodes of ENT S3 (the Xindi season arc) I have only watched twice, perhaps three times. Why? Because watching a random episode of those arcs would be like falling into the middle of a story I don't quite remember in all its details. So I'd have to commit to rewatching the entire arc, which is not something I wish to decide upon when I'm tired and all I want is just a single story.

 

[Oddish]

Oh, true. I watch Voyager, TNG, and LD most these days because they're quick, disposable, no-binge entertainment. I just don't see "Real Life" and Voyager's Big Red Reset Button as an ideal match.

 

[Tracy Trek]

But not editing the program so Belle would simply be alive was the point of "REAL LIFE". The real world doesn't have the option to just erase a mistake and redo or use a few commands and bring someone back from death.

Tom's conversation with him at the end was spot on, and one of his biggest showcases in terms of how far he has come from the pilot.

I always like to think Tom was thinking about the accident that killed his friends when he talked to the Doc about this.

 

[Lynx]

As much as I think Voyager-with-consequences would have been a better show, it could have also gone far too dark, a Stargate Universe equivalent of Star Trek and lasting about as long. I'm not sure they had the ability to be that subtle.

Here I totally agree!

Whatever faults Voyager may have had, I'm happy that it never became like Stargate Universe.
That show was horrible.
Worst characters ever in any series I've watched.

I remember quitting it after five episodes of constand bickering among the half-witted crew and northing important happened. later on I started watching it again and actually cheered for those pale blue aliens who at least created some excitement.

The only reason I started watching that show again was because a friend of mine did watch it and told me that he had fell asleep on two occasions while watching it. After that, the show became a joke between us, sort of:

"You know what it is today?
"Yes, it's finally Friday!"
And what does that mean?
"We will watch our favorite series!"
Yes! Stargate Universe! Woooo-hooo!"

On Monday back at work we used to discuss how bad the episode was.
I felt the same for BSG too. Downright boring about a bunch of losers from a destroyed Earth (that doom-and-gloom scenario again) who now were traveling into space to commit the same stupidities again.
Not to mentoion that the crew members smoked cigarettes! How incredible backwards and destructive.

Also, tv in general at that time wasn't ready for a darker tone like BSG and SGU.

9/11 essentially prepped the audience for those shows.

9/11 was the beginning of the downfall of civilization in many aspects.

After the fun 1990's, the 2000 came and put it's ice cold deadly, skeleton fingers on everything. Not only the situation in the world itself but also when it came to music, movies, TV-series and everything which made the world interesting.

I hate this century! Everything with it is just wrong.

If some aliens arrived in a spaceship and abducted me, I would be eternally grateful.

 

[Oddish]

Well get ready for more of the same in the future. The same conditions that allowed 9-11 (a terrorist sanctuary in Afghanistan) have now been recreated.

 

[Lynx]

But not editing the program so Belle would simply be alive was the point of "REAL LIFE". The real world doesn't have the option to just erase a mistake and redo or use a few commands and bring someone back from death.

Tom's conversation with him at the end was spot on, and one of his biggest showcases in terms of how far he has come from the pilot.

But if I had the chance to erase a mistake and redo or use afew commands and bring someone back from death in real life, don't you thik that I would do it?

(Of course, such things would totally screw up everything. But there are some things I personally would like to correct or improve without disturbing the actual timeline.)

But still, sometimes I think that The Doctor took his experiments a bit too far, especially since they only made him feel bad. As a hologram himself, he did have the opportunity to rewind and restart.

Tom's comment at the end is actually good (yes, I just had to rewatch that episode to see that). Sometimes a tragedy or something bad which happens in life can lead to something better. But not always.

 

[Oddish]

But if I had the chance to erase a mistake and redo or use afew commands and bring someone back from death in real life, don't you thik that I would do it?

Who wouldn't?

The way I see it...
* The Doctor's original family of lollipops was a misguided effort to give himself experience of normal everyday family life.
* B'Elanna's "Family 2.0" was an effort to show him what it was really like.
* However, while Jeffrey's new friends and his wife's hectic work schedule were typical events... Belle's death was not a typical family event. It was the absolute worst case scenario, an event that most parents regard as worse than dying.
* Since the point of the exercise was to experience normal family life, not the absolute worst thing that a parent can endure, there's no reason not to restore Belle and rewrite the scenario to prevent similar issues.

Just my two strips of latinum.

 

[dupersuper]

Well, I don't hate Spirit Folk and Fair Haven per se, but in my eyes, they're just fluff.

If only they were just fluff. By randomly treating normal holodeck characters like living, self aware beings while our "heroes" continue to treat them like video game characters, they turn the Voyager crew into monsters.

 

[Oddish]

They probably should have stuck with the conditions laid down in 11001001: holodeck characters are programs, with no "spark of life" to them. As such, they are playthings, not people. Otherwise, you just open a messy can of worms.

 

[Timofnine]

I am really shocked reading this thread and finding out what has happened to an actress who portrayed one of my childhood heroes. I will not comment any further until I have studied this thread and researched all of this a bit more, but I don’t know if I actually want to find out more as this all seems a bit tragic… so it might be a while before I reply again on this topic. All the best to Jennifer Lien, hopefully Seven of Nine summons you in a spin off if she gets one? I know that these characters didn’t have much shared onscreen time together but Kes did help to nurse Seven after her disconnection from the collective so they do have at least a small bond even if they can’t remember each other. Stepping out of this thread for now. I really hope that Lien is doing well now and recovered from whatever problems she has had in her life. Hopefully her former cast mates have at least *tried* to support her.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I am really shocked reading this thread and finding out what has happened to an actress who portrayed one of my childhood heroes. I will not comment any further until I have studied this thread and researched all of this a bit more, but I don’t know if I actually want to find out more as this all seems a bit tragic… so it might be a while before I reply again on this topic. All the best to Jennifer Lien, hopefully Seven of Nine summons you in a spin off if she gets one? I know that these characters didn’t have much shared onscreen time together but Kes did help to nurse Seven after her disconnection from the collective so they do have at least a small bond even if they can’t remember each other. Stepping out of this thread for now. I really hope that Lien is doing well now and recovered from whatever problems she has had in her life. Hopefully her former cast mates have at least *tried* to support her.

This was all years ago, and we have no new information.

She might be fine now.

 

[Timofnine]

This was all years ago, and we have no new information.

She might be fine now.

I would say let’s investigate, but I won’t say that just incase she wants to keep her life private. An indication that she is doing well would go down well amongst the Star Trek community though just to stop us worrying about her if nothing else?

 

[Guy Gardener]

That Voyager movie is coming out soon?

To the Journey: Looking Back at Star Trek: Voyager

She is not listed in the cast though.

 

[Lynx]

They probably should have stuck with the conditions laid down in 11001001: holodeck characters are programs, with no "spark of life" to them. As such, they are playthings, not people. Otherwise, you just open a messy can of worms.

I actually agree.
The Doctor's development was......well, remarcable is the right word.

From just an emergency program which was supposed to be switched on only at times of emergency to, well almost a human being. Wast that really part of the Voyager premise or was it something which started to happen during the ongoing production of the show?

Which also brings the discussion back to the original subject of this thread.

I get the impression that a lot of people thinks it's perfectly OK with The Doctor developing more and more into a sentinent being, even getting a mobile emitter to move around freely, thus becoming more human than Data ever became. Obviously that development is accepted.

But when I suggest that Kes lifespan should be prolonged which was actually possible due to the premise of the show and the events in Cold Fire and Before And After, there are many who reject that idea.

Why is The Doctor allowed to develope but not Kes?

 

[Farscape One]

Not having Kes' lifespan prolonged doesn't mean she doesn't get developed.

Had she been kept around, she could have gotten more development. Of course, we never got that.

I feel like when they created the 9 year lifespan for Kes, the creators were thinking of the phrase 'the brightest candles burn out faster'. Or "Only the Good Die Young", if they like Billy Joel.

Having a short life, the writers could have really turned that into an exploration of what it means to have the whole galaxy to explore, but only a fraction of time to do it. She was clearly curious and a natural born explorer, which is one of the reasons why she fit in with the crew so easily.


Regarding The Doctor, I think considerable leeway was given to Picardo, who proved time and time again that he was one of THE strongest actors there. He's one of the only actors who got to keep a couple ad-lib lines in an episode. (Like his neck being a simulation to EMH-2 in "MESSAGE IN A BOTTLE".) Damn near no one got to do that, and this is from TNG all the way to ENTERPRISE.

 

[Oddish]

Why is The Doctor allowed to develope but not Kes?

He develops, but the essence of what he is (a highly sophisticated computer program) doesn't change. I think that for some people, having Kes gain an extended lifespan wouldn't be developing her, it would just be eliminating what made her different. Like the Doctor becoming human, or Seven losing her Borg implants.

I understand this sentiment, though I feel that extending Kes's life could be done, if handled right. After all, Voyager changed its premises of deprivation and intra-crew animosities, why not this one as well?

 

[gweeps]

But Kes became a non-corporeal entity in 'The Gift'? Then again, that seems to have been thrown out with the later episode, 'Fury'.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But Kes became a non-corporeal entity in 'The Gift'? Then again, that seems to have been thrown out with the later episode, 'Fury'.

Tannis. a sexy boy Ocampa, who lived with Susperia the female Caretaker, could go back and forth between realms too.

The problem was that Kes could be non corporeal, and possibly immortal, so long as she stayed non corporeal, but when Kes got to energy vapour heaven, it was empty so she got lonely.

Then she went home to Ocampa and they treated her like an asshole, so she bugged out.

She could have taught them how to get to energy vapour heaven but they treated her like an asshole, so she didn't?

By the time she went senile space crazy in Fury either Kes could alter perception so that she seemed 6 years younger, or she could manipulate matter/reality and Kes was actually yet magically 6 years younger, which means that she is only as old as she wants to be, in the physical realm... But by the end of Fury Kes turned back into an 8 year old, either because her younger appearance was an illusion, or because when push comes to shove if she did get younger, Kes likes to look her true age.