Spoilers Captain Archer's Response in Cogenitor

[Jedi Marso]

You can argue this position from either side and not necessarily be wrong. The crux of the matter is this:

Do you believe it's is right and proper to force your rules and values on another species and culture, or not?

If yes, Trip acted properly.
If no, Trip was way out of line.

 

[Oddish]

It's been awhile since I've seen the episode, but is there really any evidence that the Vissians treated the cogenitors cruelly versus just being largely indifferent to them?

All right, so you consider it acceptable to not give someone a name, not educate them, not even allow them basic pleasures of life. I respect your right to your opinion... and totally disagree with you.

And let's remember that the cogenitors were needed for the survival of the civilization.

Yes. That would require that they move from family to family, and limit certain career options for them as a result. It should not preclude education, recreation, or the dignity of a given name.

If ants were essential to the survival of humanity, does anyone think we'd start treating them better?

If they demonstrated that ants were as intelligent as we were, and had the same emotions and aspirations as we did, yes, I think our treatment of ants would improve.

 

[Airmandan]

For all the people complaining about the Vissian culture, the same situation is playing out real world in Afghanistan. We tried to interfere, to bring about out "modern ideals" and in the end the world has handed Afghanistan back to the Taliban to treat the women there as less than human.

 

[XCV330]

For all the people complaining about the Vissian culture, the same situation is playing out real world in Afghanistan. We tried to interfere, to bring about out "modern ideals" and in the end the world has handed Afghanistan back to the Taliban to treat the women there as less than human.

The coalition was not there to modernize the nation or liberate women. It was designed around a five point ultimatum delivered to the Taliban which the Taliban rejected outright. Mission creep occurred along the way.

 

[Oddish]

For all the people complaining about the Vissian culture, the same situation is playing out real world in Afghanistan. We tried to interfere, to bring about out "modern ideals" and in the end the world has handed Afghanistan back to the Taliban to treat the women there as less than human.

Our failure does not make the Taliban's actions, beliefs, or "culture" any less evil, any less disgusting.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Just because I joke about a character being neglected doesn't mean I approve. Mayweather deserved better than he got.

Apologies! I am so sorry for sounding sincerely peeved. My post was missing a smilie to convey I was joshing you guys. (Smilie now added.)

We all feel sorry for Mayweather, and he kinda has a "kick me" sign on his back because the writers kept forgetting he existed. Wasn't he even killed off in "Twilight"? So sad.

Our failure does not make the Taliban's actions, beliefs, or "culture" any less evil, any less disgusting.

Bringing "Cogenitor" back into the discussion... sure, there's a parallel with the Taliban, or ISIS, any society that oppresses part of its people. But the oppressors would no sooner believe their treatment of the weak (women, minorities, etc) is wrong or bad than the Vissians would, about their treatment of cogenitors. The leaders of each culture-- humans, Vissians, Taliban -- believe utterly in their rightness. Cogenitors are, in fact, treated waaaay better than women are by ISIS; Vissians keep them safe and fed and healthy, because they are essential for the future of the Vissian race.

Another analogy, of course, is the Garden of Eden, and the apple.

 

[DonIago]

^Well, except we have no idea how the Vissian leadership feels about the treatment of the Cogenitors because we never meet the Vissian leadership. We meet one ship, we have no idea how representative that ship is of the overall civilization, and yet we're trying to extrapolate their entire civilization from an isolated encounter.

How would we feel about the Vissians judging all of human civilization based on their encounter with Our Heroes?

 

[Oddish]

The fact that the cogenitor never had a name and never received any education gives us a pretty good idea, though.

 

[DonIago]

No civilization is monolithic though, even as much as Star Trek's fallen into the trap of painting them as such.

...well, maybe the Borg, if one can even call that a civilization...

 

[Tenacity]

The fact that the cogenitor never had a name and never received any education gives us a pretty good idea, though.

But is that the standard for the entire culture, or is the example we see a atypical exception?

 

[Oddish]

But is that the standard for the entire culture, or is the example we see a atypical exception?

How many families has she been passed among, to say nothing of the ones who raised her? Not one of them, not one gave her education or a name.

I'd say the evidence is pretty conclusive.

 

[Ragitsu]

The leaders of each culture-- humans, Vissians, Taliban

Uh...

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

^Well, except we have no idea how the Vissian leadership feels about the treatment of the Cogenitors because we never meet the Vissian leadership. We meet one ship, we have no idea how representative that ship is of the overall civilization, and yet we're trying to extrapolate their entire civilization from an isolated encounter.

Sure. Maybe there are couples who fawn over them like beloved pets, and have pet names for them too.

As for the lack of education or name...I still wonder if in the Vissian past, the Cogenitors, realizing they were key to Vissian survival, muscled their way into ruling the society. Maybe the rest of the Vissians didn't like how they ruled, or didn't like being so dependent on them, so overthrew them. And the pendulum swung way in the other direction, and the Cogenitors were robbed of all power. Keep 'em uneducated, so they won't think to hold the rest of the society hostage again.

The leaders of each culture-- humans, Vissians, Taliban

Uh...

Oopsie. Let that be a lesson to you all - proofread before hitting Reply!

For all Taliban sympathizers, I do apologize for the misstatement.

 

[Oddish]

For all Taliban sympathizers, I do apologize for the misstatement.

I wouldn't apologize to the Talibun, or their sympathizers, for anything.

 

[Deks]

I like to think that once the Federation formed, the Vissians expressed interest in joining. That might have allowed the Federation council to pressure them into granting their cogenitor class more rights.

The Vissians would certainly have to make cerain changes on a societal level in order to meet the criteria to join the UFP (or at least, those would have been the requirements to join UFP in the 24th century).

In the 23rd century, the rules for joining may have been bit more .... 'relaxed' (if TOS is to be taken into account, several 'less advanced' planets were part of UFP as well.).. in which case, the Vissians could potentially resume with what they are doing, but would likely petition the UFP to help them move beyond needing to use the Cogenitors.

Its also possible the Vissians themselves changed their own outlook towards the Cogenitors as a result of what happened with NX-01 and solved this dillemma before joining the UFP (IF they joined to begin with).
No one said the UFP had to have prompted them to change this... and for all we know, changes may have already been happening on Vissia to begin with.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Its a congenitor in deep space servicing one couple.

That's fiscally stupid.

Something illegal is going on.

 

[DonIago]

The Vissians would certainly have to make cerain changes on a societal level in order to meet the criteria to join the UFP (or at least, those would have been the requirements to join UFP in the 24th century).

In the 23rd century, the rules for joining may have been bit more .... 'relaxed' (if TOS is to be taken into account, several 'less advanced' planets were part of UFP as well.).. in which case, the Vissians could potentially resume with what they are doing, but would likely petition the UFP to help them move beyond needing to use the Cogenitors.

Its also possible the Vissians themselves changed their own outlook towards the Cogenitors as a result of what happened with NX-01 and solved this dillemma before joining the UFP (IF they joined to begin with).
No one said the UFP had to have prompted them to change this... and for all we know, changes may have already been happening on Vissia to begin with.

I think it would be a very Star Trek resolution if there were additional encounters between the Vissians and the UFP and the UFP did find a way to help them, with or without the Vissians ultimately joining the UFP...though I'd like to think, based on how well Archer and the Vissian captain got along, that they'd be a welcome member once the Cogenitor issues were sorted out.

 

[Deks]

I think it would be a very Star Trek resolution if there were additional encounters between the Vissians and the UFP and the UFP did find a way to help them, with or without the Vissians ultimately joining the UFP...though I'd like to think, based on how well Archer and the Vissian captain got along, that they'd be a welcome member once the Cogenitor issues were sorted out.

Yeah.
The Vissians on the other hand might not deem it necessary to join UFP until some time has passed since their encounter with NX-01.
Perhaps SNW could touch on this subject with Christopher Pike and 1701.

 

[at Quark's]

The other Federation members would benefit significantly if the Vissians were to join ... mid-22nd century Vissian technology seemed advanced beyond even late 24th century Federation state-of-the-art.

The Vissians would probably have no such immediate benefit if they joined, though I'd say it's always better to be in a trustworthy alliance than to stand alone.

 

[Oddish]

It's been remarked that the Vissians and humanity might already have been exchanging culture and tech, despite the bumpy beginning. Those photonic torpedoes they had from S3 on must have come from somewhere.