Why does Harry Kim never get promoted?

[Farscape One]

Holograms are subordinate to humanoids.

Holograms are slaves.

Holograms do what they are told, or they are deleted.

If Captain Chakotay wants to make the EMH the CMO over an Ocampa, because a Hologram will always be a better Doctor than a humanoid, then he better prepare to retire because it's likely that the ECH is a superior commanding officer than he is too.

If that were true, then as soon as Tom became the medic in season 4, being a Lt. j.g., he would be the CMO. Even when he was ensign. Yet he wasn't.

Again, there is no dialogue, whether it's in the real timeline or the "BEFORE AND AFTER" one, that contradicts his status as CMO.

 

[Farscape One]

Certainly, Harry seems highly capable. He was heavily involved in the design and construction of the Delta Flyer, and the creation of Seven's astrometrics lab (yet another reason why he deserved that hollow pip). Whether these mad skillz translate to running an engine room is unknown.



Tuvok probably promoted Ayala (Voyager's answer to Morn) to security chief. Since Ayala doesn't share his difficult relationship with Neelix, he was willing to take Neelix on as a security officer.



One, Voyager seems to have more living space than other ships, given that even ensigns have their own quarters.

Two, families undoubtedly get sizable quarters. Ensign Wildman (who also should have made lieutenant at some point) had enough living space for Naomi to have her own room.



A conventional hologram (like the sad version of Minuet Riker got after the Bynars departed), probably true. I get the sense that thing was only capable of dancing, basic conversation, and maybe a little horizontal mambo. But for a hologram that has to have huge memory allotments because of its role (medicine), it might wind up exceeding the intent of its programmers.

If you want holograms to be slaves, simply write certain limits into their programs, so that they can't develop the abilities that Voyager's EMH did.

Regarding ensigns having their own quarters on Voyager, I think Kim only got his own because he was senior officer. Wildman got bigger quarters because of Naomi.

The rest seem to be doubled up with a roommate, like Vorik. We saw a bunk bed there in "BLOOD FEVER".

 

[Guy Gardener]

Certainly, Harry seems highly capable. He was heavily involved in the design and construction of the Delta Flyer, and the creation of Seven's astrometrics lab (yet another reason why he deserved that hollow pip). Whether these mad skillz translate to running an engine room is unknown.



Tuvok probably promoted Ayala (Voyager's answer to Morn) to security chief. Since Ayala doesn't share his difficult relationship with Neelix, he was willing to take Neelix on as a security officer.



One, Voyager seems to have more living space than other ships, given that even ensigns have their own quarters.

Two, families undoubtedly get sizable quarters. Ensign Wildman (who also should have made lieutenant at some point) had enough living space for Naomi to have her own room.



A conventional hologram (like the sad version of Minuet Riker got after the Bynars departed), probably true. I get the sense that thing was only capable of dancing, basic conversation, and maybe a little horizontal mambo. But for a hologram that has to have huge memory allotments because of its role (medicine), it might wind up exceeding the intent of its programmers.

If you want holograms to be slaves, simply write certain limits into their programs, so that they can't develop the abilities that Voyager's EMH did.

I don't want holograms to be slaves. But yes, there are several levels of complexity that can have hologram be as cognoscente as a forklift, like those morons from Flesh and Blood, all the way up to the Holograms that the Hirogen were making to hunt who were too smart and too dangerous to hunt.

If they are non sentient machines, then they are tools.

If they are sentient life forms, then they are slaves.

Voyager's crew were a bunch of touchy feely hippies, who ignored the law and awarded "human rights" to a tool that was pretending to be sentient as an entertainment to stop the crew from going space crazy. It's obviously a holoprogram written by Barclay based on Data's quest to be human.

"Sigh"

I had a thought about Dr Van Gough's hair, and even how he named himself.

Overcompensation for an inferiority complex, because Kes took his job.

I like the idea of Ayala getting a leg up.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If that were true, then as soon as Tom became the medic in season 4, being a Lt. j.g., he would be the CMO. Even when he was ensign. Yet he wasn't.

Again, there is no dialogue, whether it's in the real timeline or the "BEFORE AND AFTER" one, that contradicts his status as CMO.

He was off line for nine months.

Kes was definitely the CMO for those nine months.

 

[Farscape One]

Okay, she was acting as CMO for that time he was offline. But like with any other scenario we have seen across 10 shows and over 800 episodes, after someone is incapacitated and are able bodied again, they resume their position.

The Doctor went back to being the CMO.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If she wanted to keep the job, she could ask Captain Chakotay before they booted him up, or program the Doctor not to want to be CMO before they booted him up.

The only reason that Kes Would not have been CMO in the before and after timeline is if she didn't want the job.

You do remember that the Doctor does not have a medical degree and did not go to medical school? He's not a doctor.

As a tool or a slave the Doctor is ordered to be the CMO most of the time, and there will be consequences if he shirks his duty to look after the health of the crew.

 

[at Quark's]

If I were Captain Chakotay, when the EMH is finally rebooted after being offline for so long, I would simply give the CMO job to the one I think would be the most suited, whether that's the EMH, or Kes at that point.

 

[Farscape One]

If she wanted to keep the job, she could ask Captain Chakotay before they booted him up, or program the Doctor not to want to be CMO before they booted him up.

The only reason that Kes Would not have been CMO in the before and after timeline is if she didn't want the job.

You do remember that the Doctor does not have a medical degree and did not go to medical school? He's not a doctor.

As a tool or a slave the Doctor is ordered to be the CMO most of the time, and there will be consequences if he shirks his duty to look after the health of the crew.

Are you serious?

The Doctor doesn't have a degree and didn't go to medical school? He has the entire Federation database of medicine, in addition to the experience of DOZENS of doctors. (This has been established in dialogue in early season 1.)

Otherwise, why would he be teaching Kes???

And regarding Kes, why would she be CMO of a Starfleet ship when there is already a Starfleet medical officer, hologram or not, who already holds that position? Kes is a civilian, and was just keeping the CMO seat warm until The Doctor got reactivated.

 

[Oddish]

Regarding ensigns having their own quarters on Voyager, I think Kim only got his own because he was senior officer. Wildman got bigger quarters because of Naomi.

That is actually a symptom of the greater issue: Harry did not spend any appreciable amount of time as an actual ensign. Rather, he was basically an acting lieutenant. His responsibilities and privileges were comparable to those of Tom, B'Elanna, and Tuvok. If you want to see how a fresh out of Academy ensign is supposed to live, just watch TNG's "Lower Decks": shared quarters, not knowing anything, and eager to compete for a higher spot on the pecking order.

Given that Harry had lieutenant level rights and responsibilities, he should have gotten the grade to go with them.

If they are non sentient machines, then they are tools.

If they are sentient life forms, then they are slaves.

And there is the need for the former. Whether it's waiting tables, sweeping floors, answering phones, or making it so a social awkward academy grad can haul his proverbial ashes, holograms with extremely limited cognitive capabilities have their place.

If you don't want to have to worry about what are basically computer programs gaining sapient capabilities, then you simply impose limits on all holographic programs.

had a thought about Dr Van Gough's hair, and even how he named himself.

Overcompensation for an inferiority complex, because Kes took his job.

Okay, she was acting as CMO for that time he was offline. But like with any other scenario we have seen across 10 shows and over 800 episodes, after someone is incapacitated and are able bodied again, they resume their position.

The Doctor went back to being the

The only reason that Kes Would not have been CMO in the before and after timeline is if she didn't want the job.

You're presuming that a chain of command was even established. The fact that no one had any rank pips on their collar suggests that neither Kes nor Linnis nor the EMH considered it necessary.

You do remember that the Doctor does not have a medical degree and did not go to medical school? He's not a doctor.

As far as the Voyager crew are concerned, he basically is. And until the ship returns to the Alpha Quadrant, the EMH's official legal status doesn't matter.

 

[at Quark's]

That is actually a symptom of the greater issue: Harry did not spend any appreciable amount of time as an actual ensign. Rather, he was basically an acting lieutenant. His responsibilities and privileges were comparable to those of Tom, B'Elanna, and Tuvok. If you want to see how a fresh out of Academy ensign is supposed to live, just watch TNG's "Lower Decks": shared quarters, not knowing anything, and eager to compete for a higher spot on the pecking order.

Given that Harry had lieutenant level rights and responsibilities, he should have gotten the grade to go with them.

On a slightly related note, I have wondered how Sisko could command a 600+ ship fleet as a mere captain, even when he also was adjutant to Admiral Ross.

 

[Farscape One]

I suppose that is possible for two reasons.

First, in "BEHIND THE LINES", Ross' previous adjutant was a commander, so having a captain be the next one seems to fit.

Second, Sisko has only been a captain for 2 years and change by the time he became Ross' adjutant. Despite his excellent tactical skills and planning (and his general awesomeness and being my favorite captain), I can see not promoting such a relatively newly minted captain ahead of others who have held the rank for much longer. Plus, his interference of Bajor becoming a Federation world, while not losing his commission, likely hampered any chance for a rank promotion anytime soon.

 

[Oddish]

No, Sisko should not have been promoted to admiral.
They should have had Adm. Ross (or another admiral) commanding the fleet, it's as simple as that.

 

[at Quark's]

Not saying he should be promoted to admiral. Just wondering why he (as, as others say a relatively newminted captain) got the job of commanding such a huge fleet when there must have been far more experienced admirals or vice-admirals to do that job.

It just struck me as another case where a Starfleet officer got a job and responsibilities that significantly overstretched his rank, just like with Harry Kim.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Are you serious?

The Doctor doesn't have a degree and didn't go to medical school? He has the entire Federation database of medicine, in addition to the experience of DOZENS of doctors. (This has been established in dialogue in early season 1.)

Otherwise, why would he be teaching Kes???

And regarding Kes, why would she be CMO of a Starfleet ship when there is already a Starfleet medical officer, hologram or not, who already holds that position? Kes is a civilian, and was just keeping the CMO seat warm until The Doctor got reactivated.

On M*A*S*H* Captain Pierce was made Chief Surgeon over Major Burns and Major Houlahan and Lt Colonel Blake because sometimes when treating a patient there is a choice, there is more than one possible treatment or more than one possible surgery available to fix/cure the patient, and the medical staff could be in a disagreement. Someone has to have the final say, and lets remember the Doctor blew a gasket when he couldn't decide on saving that pretty girl or Harry Kim. Wouldn't it be nice if there was some one with a soul to tell the Doctor "No, that's way too risky, we are not going to do that." sometimes?

Going to medical school is not just about learning the craft, its about learning ethics, and learning responsibility and learning failure. Every surgery is a possible Kobayashi Maru. And besides anytime someone says "Delete Ethical subroutines" the EMH transforms from Doctor Kildare to Doctor Mengele. Ocampas go crazy too with their wackadoodle hormones, but they get sweaty, so you know when to avoid these two women with with a scalpel.

The Doctors intepersonal subroutines were designed by the king of cool Reg freaking Barclay, which is even more over compensation to deal scorn from being a loser. A bald loser. The EMH is a powder keg of neuroses that is going to explode at some point, and barely sees patients as more than meat sacks in season one. Actual life experience, rounded off those rough edges.

Oh? Did Reg accidentally pass on his Holoaddiction to the Doctor?

 

[Oddish]

just struck me as another case where a Starfleet officer got a job and responsibilities that significantly overstretched his rank, just like with Harry Kim.

Very true. At least Ben got the promotion he was due for, i.e. commander to captain.

Someone has to have the final say, and lets remember the Doctor blew a gasket when he couldn't decide on saving that pretty girl or Harry Kim.

They could have easily fixed that. Just tweak his triage subroutines to say: "In an emergency situation with two or more patients of comparable need of care and value to the crew, when all other triage protocols have been exhausted, the EMH may make a subjective decision."

The Doctors intepersonal subroutines were designed by the king of cool Reg freaking Barclay, which is even more over compensation to deal scorn from being a loser. A bald loser.

Weren't they designed by Lewis Zimmerman? The EMH existed when Barclay was still on the Enterprise E (Star Trek First Contact).

 

[Guy Gardener]

Weren't they designed by Lewis Zimmerman? The EMH existed when Barclay was still on the Enterprise E (Star Trek First Contact).

Voy Projections.

EMH: And who is this Lieutenant Barclay I imagined.
KIM: Barclay was part of the original engineering team that designed your programme. He was in charge of testing your interpersonal skills.
EMH: Well, this should make an interesting paper.

Remember how he failed upward to the Enterprise?

This must have been one of his jobs on the way from there to here.

 

[Farscape One]

On M*A*S*H* Captain Pierce was made Chief Surgeon over Major Burns and Major Houlahan and Captain Blake because sometimes when treating a patient there is a choice, there is more than one possible treatment or more than one possible surgery available to fix/cure the patient, and the medical staff could be in a disagreement. Someone has to have the final say, and lets remember the Doctor blew a gasket when he couldn't decide on saving that pretty girl or Harry Kim. Wouldn't it be nice if there was some one with a soul to tell the Doctor "No, that's way too risky, we are not going to do that." sometimes?

Going to medical school is not just about learning the craft, its about learning ethics, and learning responsibility and learning failure. Every surgery is a possible Kobayashi Maru. And besides anytime someone says "Delete Ethical subroutines" the EMH transforms from Doctor Kildare to Doctor Mengele. Ocampas go crazy too with their wackadoodle hormones, but they get sweaty, so you know when to avoid these two women with with a scalpel.

The Doctors intepersonal subroutines were designed by the king of cool Reg freaking Barclay, which is even more over compensation to deal scorn from being a loser. A bald loser. The EMH is a powder keg of neuroses that is going to explode at some point, and barely sees patients as more than meat sacks in season one. Actual life experience, rounded off those rough edges.

Oh? Did Reg accidentally pass on his Holoaddiction to the Doctor?

And again, The Doctor had the experiences of DOZENS of doctors to draw upon. "LATENT IMAGE" was an episode that should have happened earlier in the show... say, season 2 or 3. Certainly not almost halfway into season 5.

And the M*A*S*H* example... every one of them was already an officer, so comparing that to The Doctor and Kes is really apples and oranges. (And waan't it Lt. Colonel Blake, not Captain Blake?)

 

[Guy Gardener]

Margaret was the only career officer who was in the army before the War started. All of the original Doctors at the 4077 were given their rank as is, without moving through the ranks or attending military school, or officer training.

The Doctor was drawing on the experiences of a Cardassian War criminal vivisectionist... Is it at all wise to trust a "man" who murders Bajorans to push science ahead?

 

[Oddish]

The Doctor was drawing on the experiences of a Cardassian War criminal vivisectionist... Is at all wise to trust a "man" who murders Bajorans to push science ahead?

Blame the Federation dink who included said vivisectionist's sick research in the EMH"s program.

 

[Guy Gardener]

8 year old Kes did microsurgery on Captain Chakotay's elbow.

That sounds difficult.

The Doctor is no better a Doctor than Kes, at general surgery, so she's as qualified to be CMO as he is, except that he's not a Doctor.

So if Boyce came back to the Enterprise, McCoy would have to stand down... Oh.
Doctor Chapel was Decker's CMO, and Kirk demoted her?