Was Dukat really evil?

[Ragitsu]

That guy was just a dick.

An interesting notion which I do not share.

 

[dupersuper]

The most evil "mortal" character, then; Armus was metaphysical (actual "pure"?) evil rendered tangible.

I thought "true evil was submitting to him".

 

[Lucky]

He was evil. He had moments where he could have tried to redeem himself, and he took a few of them, but not enough to prevent evil from taking over.

 

[Charles Phipps]

More than Armus?

I'd say yes because of the irony that since he showed affection and empathy for Ziyal, he WASN"T mentally ill or pure evil.

Dukat COULD be a better person.

He just consistently chose to be an evil scumbag.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Armus is just really pissed off and lonely. He's a space incel.

 

[at Quark's]

I'd say yes because of the irony that since he showed affection and empathy for Ziyal, he WASN"T mentally ill or pure evil.

Dukat COULD be a better person.

He just consistently chose to be an evil scumbag.

You could also argue that that made him more evil in a way. Armus was the ' extraction of evil' of an entire group of people, and therefore might have had no choice in who he was, perhaps no option to become 'better' than he was. Dukat did have that choice but chose the 'evil' side deliberately.

TROI: <..> You sound so alone.
ARMUS [OC]: I am alone.
TROI: Abandoned. Who deserted you?
ARMUS [OC]: Creatures whose beauty now dazzles all who see them. They would not exist without me.
TROI: You were together?
ARMUS [OC]: They perfected a means of bringing to the surface all that was evil and negative within. Erupting, spreading, connecting. In time it formed second skin, dank and vile.
TROI: You.
ARMUS [OC]: Yes.
TROI: They discarded you and left.
ARMUS [OC]: And here I am.

 

[Dee1891]

Yes, Dukat was capable of evil. But in "Waltz", I thought he was simply insane, due to his daughter's death. I mean . . it was a Cardassian who had killed his daughter, yet by the end of the episode, he wants to destroy Bajor. I don't know what to make of his.

 

[USS Firefly]

Yes, Dukat was capable of evil. But in "Waltz", I thought he was simply insane, due to his daughter's death. I mean . . it was a Cardassian who had killed his daughter, yet by the end of the episode, he wants to destroy Bajor. I don't know what to make of his.

That "Waltz" is a terrible episode for Dukat's character

 

[Charles Phipps]

Yes, Dukat was capable of evil. But in "Waltz", I thought he was simply insane, due to his daughter's death. I mean . . it was a Cardassian who had killed his daughter, yet by the end of the episode, he wants to destroy Bajor. I don't know what to make of his.

I think it was a necessary character check because fans had been apparently trying to soften Dukat for so long. Dukat is a man who was involved in countless horrific atrocities and the fandom kept letting him off the hook even though the guy is a rapist (Kira seems to be missing her mother wouldn't have been "willing" if her family starving to death wasn't an issue), fascist, and mass murderer.

I totally bought that Dukat more than anything wanted to be Bajor's "White Savior" and when he realized he'd always be considered a monster there, he admitted he hated them.

 

[Ragitsu]

Charm goes a lonnnnnnnnnnnnng way. That, and an overdose of moral relativism.

 

[Captain Jerk]

The showrunners clearly didn't want Dukat to be hated in black-and-white good guy/bad guy terms. Before the final season or two, he never really did anything overly bad or monstrous on-screen (correct me if I'm wrong), and made claims like it was the government that was responsible for the Occupation and he was just following orders, and that if it weren't for his actions way more Bajorans would have died, and so forth. And no character really completely disputed these claims, so for all we knew as viewers perhaps there was at least some truth to his personal slant on things. In fact Damar did the worst thing between the 2 characters on screen when he murdered his daughter (up to that point in the series anyway). Even when he impregnated that Pah-Wraith cult member it was shown at the end he seemed to truly believe he was following the will of the Pah-Wraiths. And after the demon that possessed him left him after killing Jadzia he didn't laugh or say things like "That's what you get!" and kick her body out of the way, he expressed a measure of remorse and made it clear it was only Sisko he meant harm. And he clearly loved his daughter and chose to spare her life even if it meant it would cost him in Cardassian society (although he clearly was also motivated by impressing Kira and gaining her favour as well, he wanted her in bed just like he got her mother in bed no doubt). lol Dukat was an a-hole but a likeable one thanks to his own impression and view of himself, even if it was self-deluded or not entirely honest. And he threw Sisko and Jake a surprise fireworks display instead of simply making fireworks out of them and their ship. Because once again he didn't see himself as some petty criminal or murderer or someone of low stature, but rather a great man who was above others, sort of like how if you kill enough people history sees you as a "conqueror" kind of thing I suppose. In summary, All Hail King Dukat.

Kira seems to be missing her mother wouldn't have been "willing" if her family starving to death wasn't an issue

Kira was a hypocrite, she killed a boatload of what she considered "collaborators" in her day and spared her own mother, because it was her mother. And yes Kira was overly harsh on her judgments of people who collaborated in order to survive or to make sure others survived. And she ditched her father and left him to die alone. Daughter of the Year? Check. lol And she forgave Odo for his own collaborator-esque crimes when he was working for the Cardassians, and seemed to quickly get past the fact that an older version of Odo was fine with letting thousands of people cease to exist just so his younger self could get a chance with her romantically. Kira is apparently the moral arbiter of who deserves to die and who doesn't and who deserves second chances (or a hundred second chances).

 

[Ragitsu]

Personally, I think the descriptor of "a-hole" should be reserved for people who cut you off in traffic and the like; an individual who was the commander of a space concentration camp deserves an appellation at least somewhat more severe.

 

[Sci]

Yes, Dukat was capable of evil. But in "Waltz", I thought he was simply insane, due to his daughter's death. I mean . . it was a Cardassian who had killed his daughter, yet by the end of the episode, he wants to destroy Bajor. I don't know what to make of his.

It's pretty clear what to make of this: Dukat was evil.

The showrunners clearly didn't want Dukat to be hated in black-and-white good guy/bad guy terms.

They literally wrote him as a space Nazi.

Before the final season or two, he never really did anything overly bad or monstrous on-screen (correct me if I'm wrong),

Amongst other things, he abducted Rugal Pa'Dar from his father and placed him in a Bajoran orphanage, and tracked down and tried to kill his daughter Ziyal twice. In season five, he tries to genocide the entire Bajoran star system right after selling Cardassia to the Dominion. In "Things Past," we see him order the execution of innocent Bajorans. In season two, he collaborates with the Circle to try to take over Bajor again. We constantly hear about the slave labor camps he ran as prefect, and we see him operate mass rape programs "Wrongs Darker Than Dead or Night." He launches a war of aggression against the Federation and Klingon Empire at the start of the Dominion War and plots the conquest and brutal oppression of Earth and the Federation worlds. How much more evil can a man possibly do?

and made claims like it was the government that was responsible for the Occupation and he was just following orders,

You really gonna just take the classic Nazi defense at face value?

and that if it weren't for his actions way more Bajorans would have died,

A bullshit rationalization.

And no character really completely disputed these claims,

Yes, they do.

In fact Damar did the worst thing between the 2 characters on screen when he murdered his daughter

Once again, Dukat literally tried to exterminate all life in the Bajoran star system in "By Inferno's Light," up to and including that same daughter.

Even when he impregnated that Pah-Wraith cult member it was shown at the end he seemed to truly believe he was following the will of the Pah-Wraiths.

So what?

And after the demon that possessed him left him after killing Jadzia he didn't laugh or say things like "That's what you get!" and kick her body out of the way, he expressed a measure of remorse and made it clear it was only Sisko he meant harm.

So the fuck what? He was trying to aid and abet a brutal war of aggression and conquest and trying to genocide the Prophets.

And he clearly loved his daughter

He tried to kill her multiple times.

and chose to spare her life even if it meant it would cost him in Cardassian society

After trying to kill her. And then he tried to kill her again!

In summary, All Hail King Dukat.

That is a really sickening thing to write.

Kira was a hypocrite,

Kira was a hero who fought for the freedom of her people, and that outweighs everything else.

 

[Dee1891]

I think it was a necessary character check because fans had been apparently trying to soften Dukat for so long. Dukat is a man who was involved in countless horrific atrocities and the fandom kept letting him off the hook even though the guy is a rapist (Kira seems to be missing her mother wouldn't have been "willing" if her family starving to death wasn't an issue), fascist, and mass murderer.

I totally bought that Dukat more than anything wanted to be Bajor's "White Savior" and when he realized he'd always be considered a monster there, he admitted he hated them.

And yet, he ignored that a Cardassian had murdered his daughter? this is why I had such a problem with Dukat during the show's last two seasons (along with the series' writing). It's not that I wanted him to be redeemed. But it made no sense to me that he had practically ignored the person who was responsible for his daughter's death. I thought this may have been a sign of his growing insanity. But we're supposed to believe Sisko that he was simply evil and nothing else.

 

[Charles Phipps]

And yet, he ignored that a Cardassian had murdered his daughter? this is why I had such a problem with Dukat during the show's last two seasons (along with the series' writing). It's not that I wanted him to be redeemed. But it made no sense to me that he had practically ignored the person who was responsible for his daughter's death. I thought this may have been a sign of his growing insanity. But we're supposed to believe Sisko that he was simply evil and nothing else.

I mean Sisko's view of Dukat is that he's a man who constantly attempts to frame himself as a good person but that never actually stops him from doing horrific evil deeds. We could argue that Ziyal was someone deeply important to him and that he should have gotten revenge but I'd argue it actually worked better that once she was gone that he basically put her out of his mind and focused instead on his grand desire to be a god.

We can say, "Simply evil and nothing else." But the lesson Sisko has is that Dukat never learns and never will. It's not SHALLOW but it's also straight forward. Dukat thinks of himself as a grand and complicated man but he's just always going to do what's best for himself with one or two exceptions in his entire life.

 

[Dee1891]

I mean Sisko's view of Dukat is that he's a man who constantly attempts to frame himself as a good person but that never actually stops him from doing horrific evil deeds. We could argue that Ziyal was someone deeply important to him and that he should have gotten revenge but I'd argue it actually worked better that once she was gone that he basically put her out of his mind and focused instead on his grand desire to be a god.

We can say, "Simply evil and nothing else." But the lesson Sisko has is that Dukat never learns and never will. It's not SHALLOW but it's also straight forward. Dukat thinks of himself as a grand and complicated man but he's just always going to do what's best for himself with one or two exceptions in his entire life.

Sisko still dismissed Dukat's erratic behavior in this episode. And it's one of the reasons why I dislike it so much.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Sisko still dismissed Dukat's erratic behavior in this episode. And it's one of the reasons why I dislike it so much.

Perhaps but that actually does fit with one of the themes I do like: Sisko isn't Dukat's archenemy.

Dukat wants to be the Joker to his Batman or Lex Luthor or a grand theatrical nemesis.

But Sisko doesn't remotely think of him like this.

To quote Robert Meyers, "Khan has been thinking about Kirk for decades, Kirk has not been thinking about Khan."

Dukat is not Sisko's equal or some grand rival, he's just some random Space Nazi (forgive the terminology) who keeps getting in his way.

So of course Sisko dismisses his behavior because he doesn't care about Dukat. Ironically, Kira DOES consider Dukat that sort of rival but Dukat never thinks of her in those terms because she's Bajoran and a woman that he's attracted to.

 

[at Quark's]

Kira was a hypocrite, she killed a boatload of what she considered "collaborators" in her day and spared her own mother, because it was her mother. And yes Kira was overly harsh on her judgments of people who collaborated in order to survive or to make sure others survived. And she ditched her father and left him to die alone. Daughter of the Year? Check. lol And she forgave Odo for his own collaborator-esque crimes when he was working for the Cardassians, and seemed to quickly get past the fact that an older version of Odo was fine with letting thousands of people cease to exist just so his younger self could get a chance with her romantically. Kira is apparently the moral arbiter of who deserves to die and who doesn't and who deserves second chances (or a hundred second chances).

I'm not sure I would call someone that tries to kill her mother because she finds out she has been collaborating with the enemy, and finds at the critical moment she can't do it even though she's killed random strangers before a hypocrite - just someone who finds herself in a situation where principled and personal motives clash.

I would only call Kira a hypocrite if she would afterwards have glossed over or rationalized it to justify her behavior ('My mother wasn't really helping the enemy, she only provided relief service, so she was innocent; no reason to kill her'). Kira never did that, she openly admitted that she had a very hard time finding out her mother collaborated and then about her conflict whether to kill her or not.

 

[Ragitsu]

If that pre-Waltz conversation between Dukat and Weyoun where the former tries to impress upon the latter that you MUST bring your enemy to heel so they'll never defy you again hasn't convinced people that Dukat was evil, then nothing will.

 

[at Quark's]

^you mean that ' A true victory is to make your enemy see they were wrong to oppose you in the first place. To force them to acknowledge your greatness.' speech?

I always saw that as proof of his narcissism and self-delusion in the first place. (and yes, of his evil as a corollary of that).