The quote I read (about Voyager) was "We always meant to do a gay episode, but we just ran out of time."
Jennifer Lien
- Thread starter Danja
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The quote I read (about Voyager) was "We always meant to do a gay episode, but we just ran out of time."
Fuller has said that he got hate mail over the mere rumour of a gay character in Voyager. DS9 got plenty of complaints over the rather tame kiss in Rejoined.
Unfortunately, Trek fandom had (and still has) a significant number of bigots, and those in power were too timid to risk their wrath.
Unfortunately, Trek fandom had (and still has) a significant number of bigots, and those in power were too timid to risk their wrath.
Honestly, the text with exclamation marks in bold were a deliberate exaggeration from me. Sometimes I do so to create an effect.
But I must admit that it has a core of truth too.
Personally I think that I did come up with an almost perfect solution to restore the character which keeps her in the Star Trek universe where she can explore space, learn and be part of certain adventures, just like so many other characters. I think that the character is too good to become just "Star Trek cannon fodder", a character whose only purpose is to be killed off, becoming a villain, a crazy moron or ruined in some other way, like Stadi, Seska or Lore.
For me, stories like Coming Home is gospel, something that the insulting episode in season 6 never will be.
Therefore I do feel insulted when you claim that Coming Home is "in its way no any better than Fury." Nothing can be worse than that insulting, crappy episode! [/QUOTE]
I haven't read any of your stories but I can assume that you are a very good writer. If I read your stories, there might be some things I like, but probably things I did't like as well. For me, the stories have different purposes, depending on what I want to accomplish. In the Coming Home story, my main goal was to restore Kes which I did. If I write a story about, let's say Garak or Quark, the stories would be totally different.
In this I can totally agree.
The Pah-Wraith scenario had at least some acceptanse from me because it didn't kill off Kes, it didn't turn her intoa crazy old witch and it didn't send her back to her rather boring homeworld either. It also eliminated the nine year lifespan because if she lived among the Prophets of Bajor, she could live forever.
However, I would prefer a more active role for her in the Star Trek universe. I wasn't too happy with Sisko leaving the startion to live with the Prophets, I would have preferred him on the station for future books.
And there is one thing I really want and like, to continue to read about my favorites in books when the series is over. All of them!
Personally I never liked the "returning to Ocampa" scenario because it would basically deport the character to a remote place in the Star Trek universe where she would live a very boring life and withter away.
When Kes left Ocampa, she did know that she never would return. She wanted to explore space and see new things. Remember the episode Eye Of The Needle with this conversation between Kes and The Doctor:
KES: I've been thinking. If we do get back to Federation space, I'd like to explore the possibility of going to Medical School.
EMH: If you continue to apply yourself as you have, by the time we get back you may already have the equivalent of a medical degree.
KES: Then you haven't heard?
EMH: Heard what?
KES: That we might be getting back soon.
She talks about the Federation space as it is her home. It was there that she wanted to explore and develope and that's what she should have been doing. It was never any hints or anything about that she wanted to go back to Ocampa during her three years on Voyager. She did consider staying on Suspiria's array but deep down she had her doubts which were confirmed when Suspiria tried to destroy the ship and she did consider leaving with Zahir in Darkling, only to change that because:
THE DOCTOR: I'm glad to hear it. I'm also pleased you've decided to remain on board. I would have had my hands full in Sickbay without you.
KES: The Captain suggested I consider all the consequences. If I am going through changes in my life, things that are unpredictable, this is the best place for me.
THE DOCTOR: Surrounded by those who know you, and care for you.
KES: Yes.
So the least thing she was thinking about was to go back to Ocampa. And I do think that even a job as Dabo girl at Quark's would have been a better fate for Kes than "the back to Ocampa" suggestion because even at Quark's, there would have been more possibilities for adventures and unexpected events for the character.
Not to mention that she could have created the song group Kes and The Kestrels or singing duets with Vic Fontaine.
As for The Gift, I find that episode a badly written episode, just as if the "writer" wrote it during a 10-minute coffee break just to come up with something which would get rid of Kes as soon as possible.
That whole "energy being" mumbo-jumbo is full of flaws and not convincing at all. If they really had to dump kes, they could have let her leave with Zahir in Darkling, all with the possibility for her to return in some future as a normal character, not a moron.
Honestly, I think that my "happy ending" is a more "happy ending" than most of the suggestions I've seen here and there during the years.
I've read a lot of suggestions for Kes during the years, both in books and fan fiction. Some have been downright awful with aging, death and destruction as only option while some, like Christie Golden's Dark matters Trilogy and the String Theory book Evolution were more acceptable.
But what I don't understand and what I can't accept is how much so many different authors are slaves to berman's and Braga's destructive scenario, something which actually was the reson for my not so nice outburst which started this little "exchange of views".
It's like Kes is bound to be destroyed, killed off or at least banished to a remote place in the Star Trek universe just to wither away and be forgotten, instead of playing an active part in the ongoing Star Trek saga, just like Riker, Troi, Kira, Garak, Bashir, Chakotay, Paris, Kim and so many others. All of that only because two lousy writers in charge of the show decided to totaly ruin and destroy the character, just to show the "finger" to the fans who wanted her back.
And that's another reason for my "happy ending" scenario. That's also the reason why I simply let Q snap his fingers to give her a human lifespan and for bringing her back as the adventurer and explorer she was supposed to be. By doing so, I just show the "finger" back to Berman, Braga and their destructive scenarios.
The fact that they don't know who I am and that they never have read my stoories or heard about them is of less importance to me. It's all about to having the guts to change something negative and damaging that makes me feel good over what I've accomplished!
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And Voyager didn't have much problems to return to Earth from there, even considering the mumbo-jumbo in Endgame with old janeway here, new janeway there and a very confusing episode with a real homecoming for our heroes.
Anyway, just needed the information for a possible project.
That may be correct. So maybe she would considering being a member of the song duo Vic&Kes.
Fortunately we never had to see such a doom-and-gloom scenario in the show.
Aging is a curse and those who state the opposite are only trying to fool themselves.
Not to mention that the nine year lifespan is highly unrealistic. A species with such a short lifespan would never become more than primates.
As for the scenario in the Strange New Worlds anthology, is it the story Restauration?
It is horrible.
Or is it another story?
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Eleven years (including Enterprise) and nearly 300 episodes wasn't long enough?
I'd say it's completely excusable. After all there were so many exciting stories to tell about people evolving into salamanders, dogs that had to be operated underwater, and viruses that cause people to talk in long-dead languages and impersonate extinct cultures. Who could blame them for not having any time left for touching on an extremely esoteric topic like gays?
Also, I'm not convinced that if they actually had done so, the result would have been any good. It could as well have been an insulting mess filled with stereotypes.
A parallel from my experience: when I was still working child care, a lot of daycares refused to hire male staff, even though discrimination was technically illegal. The reason was simple profit: very few people would refuse to enroll their kid in daycare because the staff were all women. A significant number would refuse to enroll their kid if a staff member was male. The financially prudent decision was to keep your staff all female (or at most, hire a token man in your school-age room). Even if you personally thought it was important for kids to have role models of both sexes.
Very possibly, the Trek writers assumed (probably correctly) that they would lose more viewers by including a gay character than they would lose by having their cast all be straight. The financially prudent decision would have been clear.
It might be Restoration. If I recall it correctly. It's where she returns to Ocampa and she uses her powers to restore the ecology and one of the plants that grows is toxic to Kazon and they have to leave and not come back.As for the scenario in the Strange New Worlds anthology, is it the story Restauration?
It is horrible.
Or is it another story?
yes, that's the one.
I remember that she was killed off in the story wich was thr reason that I hated it.
Just another pointless story where Kes is brought back only to be destroyed.
Exactly the reason for my little outburst earlier in this thread.
I remember throwing the book in the garbage can but since it is my principle not to burn and destroy books, I picked it up and went to a store that sold bargain books and just put it in a box there. I don't know if anyone bought it.
Oddly the Deep Space Nine writers enjoyed punishing O'Brien without having anything against Meaney.
Worf for sure.
That's interesting because they have the same age gap issue. I'm not sure that we are ever told how old Neelix is or how long Talaxians live for.
Kes had stayed on the show and she had aged a decade per season, do you think they would have changed the actress at some point? Jennifer Lien looked young but had a lot of gravitas.
I don't think they would have.
First of all, in Before And After, it's stated that the Ocampa ages visibly only in the last stage of their lives. They actually looks the same during most of their lives.
Second, I'm sure that they would have come up with a way to prolong her lifespan if she had stayed on the show.
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Many people dislike the Neelix/Kes relationship because of what they see as an age issue. However, Kes was not a child when she had a relationship with Neelix. It was more like a relationship between a 19-year old and a 30-35-year old which is quite normal, especially in the world of music and entertainment.
Neelix jealousy and his common behavior annoyed some people too. It was obvious after a while that the relationship didn't work and maybe it should have been ended in season 2. But not in the silly way it was ended in Darkling.
Tom and Kes could have been an interesting relationship!
As a former Kazon sex slave, I mean former Kazon serving wench... Kes should either want a lot of sex, or no sex at all.
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I don't think it necessarily would have been brought up. After all, at the series' finale she would have been 8 years old, so they could have ignored it altogether without breaking any consistency.
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Not sure about this, honestly. While cheating death is commonplace on Star Trek, that seems to only apply when a person dies unnaturally. Even though "Unnatural selection" and "Rascals" both provide ways to cheat natural mortality, no one ever tries to do it. Seems to be a rule that Trek follows.
I agree with that. Look at romances between Vulcans and humans, for a reversed perspective.
And she could have resolved at the end that she was eagerly getting ready to spend her remaining year exploring as much of the Federation as she could...
There were hints that Kes's lifespan could be prolonged, especially in Cold Fire.
As for rules, to quote Neelix and later on Tuvok in Learning Curve, sometimes it's necessary to bend the rules.
As for humans and Vulcans, there ar a lot of such relationships in Star Trek.
