Spoilers Is Picard season 2 a failure?

[Charles Phipps]

If Star Trek fans who love Star Trek and watch lots of Star Trek keep saying that the social commentary has zero subtlety and hasn't been threaded into the story creatively, then they're probably judging it relative to Star Trek.

They can also be subject to criticism from other fans who think they're wearing nostlagia filters from their childhood.

Mind you, we've had people on these boards say that DISCO was too feminist and "woke Star Trek" was doomed.

 

[Danja]

Probably as well as misremembering past Trek's supposed subtleties. Also, if it isn't Let that be your last Battlefield levels of subtlety it's doing fine.

What about "Justice," "Measure of a Man," and "Critical Care"?

 

[fireproof78]

What about "Justice," "Measure of a Man," and "Critical Care"?

Justice is terrible,
Measure of a Man is OK, but certainly not subtle, and clearly didn't have long term impact on Federation or Starfleet law.
Critical Care I don't remember.

 

[Danja]

Manny Coto seemed to crack the code on this with S4 of Enterprise. Two to three episode story arcs, tightly scripted, and then on to the next one. It worked very well.

There's more than one way to do everything.

In order to do three neat, one-hour stories, there's a LOT that must be cut out.

Shout out to the ladies who've been doing the action work this season. In the past, it's always been the guys who've gone down to Earth (Kirk, Spock, Chakotay, Paris, etc.). leaving the women on the ship.

 

[fireproof78]

There's more than one way to do everything.

In order to do three neat, one-hour stories, there's a LOT that must be cut out.

Shout out to the ladies who've been doing the action work this season. In the past, it's always been the guys who've gone down to Earth (Kirk, Spock, Chakotay, Paris, etc.). leaving the women on the ship.

Janeway tended to kick ass...a lot.

 

[nic3636]

This season was interesting. I think whoever came up with the broad concepts for the season did a great job as there was a lot of really good stuff:

- Picard's childhood trauma shaping him into the man he became
- Conferation created by a single event in the past
- Jurati / Borg Queen merger
- Q dying and doing penance
- New twist on the Borg
- Young Guinan

There was also a lot of filler that wasn't very interesting and went nowhere.

Basically, they told in 9 episodes what they could have told in 3 or 4. If they cut it down to 4 episodes, or if they came up with better filler, I think the season would have been excellent. As it stands, it's not very good.

Also, spending the bulk of the season in the present just doesn't work for me. This is Star Trek! I want to see the future.

 

[Bay17]

Is Picard Season 2 a failure? Or: How I am disappointed by Picard Season 2

So, first off, pardon the longish rant, but I wanted to discuss the season overall and see if other people feel the same way I do about Season 2. I read a couple of reviews recently that crystalized some of my opinions about the show that I was really trying to hide from acknowledging.

· Some good points about Picard being more like some subpar “edgy” sci-fi drama than anything Star Trek: https://www.thegamer.com/star-trek-picard-is-garbage/

· Picard’s pacing, among other things, are major issues: https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/star-trek-picard-season-2-episode-8-review-mercy/

I thought episode 1 was great and what Picard should have been all along. Episode 2 was pretty great, with great performances and a less silly “mirror universe”. So I was really digging this season at the start. Since then, for me, it has devolved into barely watchable, boring, and meandering Discovery-level Trek.

Positive points:

· Jeri Ryan acting more like Seven, and less like the too-human version of her in season 1

· John De Lancie playing up a great, darker version of Q, even though the actual part is small/less than impactful

· Ito Aghayere’s portrayal of young Guinan

· Stewart getting a couple of Picard speeches (even if the justification for them was very slight)

Negative points (just about everything else, where to start?):

· Pointless fetch quests for our crew in the 21st century (Rios, Seven, and Raffi) where they achieve nothing but wasting time (why was the music so dramatic when Seven was driving, when absolutely no one was chasing them?)

· Waffling back and forth about whether Renee is ok or not; once Picard gives her his little speech she is fine, but only really noted in offhand dialog an episode or two later, but then suddenly they worry about it again and desperately need Picard back up and functioning again to address absolutely no problem with Renee

· Meandering storylines in every episode that just go on and on: Jurati/Borg Queen, Rios and the doctor, Soong and his daughter

· Our heroic crew seems very uncaring regarding security of the Borg Queen, the likely greatest threat to the survival of the entire planet:

o just hook her immediately in to the ship; don’t worry about a security field; don’t worry about implementing any security on the computer systems; leave her alone in the ship while you traipse off to the Chateau (for no reason); leave her Borg tentacles and nanoprobes intact and functional; leave her in the care of the not-at-all-unreliable and already compromised Jurati; once she and Jurati combine, don’t pull out all the stops to find her, just send 2 of your crew to kind of look for her 8 hours later and hope they don’t get their butts kicked

· Non-stop plot holes/lack of justification in practically every episode

o Q’s plan for Adam at the party was to alert security, then Adam walks off assuming everything was fine; security does zip; and then Adam repeats his failure with the out-of-the-blue attempted car homicide thing; and why were all 5 of the crew there again? Only Jurati and Picard did anything at all.

o Everything with Picard’s injury; he’s fine until he is not, then the doc just walks out, then non-Laris has magic mind-meld tech, then it’s crucial that the doctor holds the stabilizer instrument over Picard’s head when neither of them knows what they are doing and it requires no medical skill at all; and apparently all along non-Laris is an ancestor of Laris’s (at least there is some explanation)?

o Q, Adam, the Borg Queen; they all seem to go about their plots (whatever they actually turn out to be) in needlessly circuitous ways (almost like they are trying to pad out the running time of a 10-episode serialized show). Why does Q become a fake psychiatrist? Why does he try to get her to quit? Why doesn’t he just report that she is psychologically unfit for service? Why doesn’t he just kill her? Why does he recruit Adam to do nothing at all (other than to get Spiner and Stewart in a scene together)? If he can impersonate a doctor as part of the Europa mission or a FBI agent, why does he need Adam for anything? If Adam has access to advanced cloning technology, and money, and mercenaries, what does he need permission from some stupid medical board for? If he’s willing to do illegal genetics experiments and clone people, run down heroic astronauts or random nonagenarians with his car, and hire mercs to do whatever, what does he care if some board gives the stamp of approval for his work?

World building issues

· No references to the apparently very impactful (given Soong’s storyline) eugenics war storyline (other than a reference, maybe, to some treaty or agreement). I get that the writers seem to not want to touch that rail, but then why have a genetics/eugenics storyline if you are afraid to address it?

· They seem to be going out of their way to make the 2024 setting to be exactly like current reality, so it feels weird that the only differences are elements specifically needed for the plot lines, with no outside impacts or changes.

o ICE is just like in our reality, re: immigration and poor treatment of prisoners/suspects; but no sci-fi trappings like different uniforms, technology, or organizational title

o There are background references to sanctuary districts and 1 reference to homelessness among wealth, but no other impacts

o There are advanced space missions (Europa) and advanced genetics (cloning?) but no impacts on any day-to-day life: no clothing differences, dialog differences, nothing

· It just all feels very small; maybe this is all impacts from covid restrictions, but every scene (minus the party scene which had more people) feels like the scenes were all designed to take place in closets where we don’t have to see any historical, social, or technological differences; where our characters have stilted dialog talking all around the actual topic at hand until they have ultra-direct pointed discussions resulting in insightful and life-changing revelations over the course of 10 minutes. Rios on a whim shows the doc and her kid all the future tech; Picard reveals the entire plot re: being from the future, to some random FBI guy.

o [Noted that Voyager’s visit to the “present” in “Future’s End” was similarly underwhelming with some of the same issues re: eugenics, and sci-fi differences, but it felt like it was trying harder. DS9’s visit to the 21st century in “Past Tense” actually felt like science fiction.]

[And yes, I realize that we can all bend over backward to come up with some tortured justifications to paper over the holes in logic and motivation, but that doesn’t mean the show isn’t bad.]

I guess I have to face it: Picard season 2 is no real improvement over season 1 in any of the ways that really matter. It still has bad pacing. The mystery box approach to the individual plotlines is still boring/unengaging. And in some ways it is worse: the plotting (logic, character intentions and decisions) is even less justified than in season 1, with episodes lurching from point to point with little support other than that is what the episodes call for at any given minute. Raffi is seriously underserved both in storyline and in giving the actress not much real to contribute. And none of our crew members feel like the heroic best-of-the-best Starfleet types that we were led to believe they were back in season 2 episode 1 (after they had supposedly gotten their mojo back as a result of their work/success in season 1).

So, I will still be looking forward to the reunion of the TNG cast in season 3, but I don’t have any real hope for this season to be good and will likely just complete it to see how the plot ends (like I did season 4 of Discovery). Such a let down from the promise the start of this season.


So rant over. Anyone else feeling similar?

Totally agree

Other things for me
- don’t know what to do with Soji from season 1, even though she’s special and has special powers and has to be protected, so in episode one we just send her off to do something, but then have the actress play someone completely different, in a storyline which leads nowhere because she escapes but it shows Soong as a bad guy
- don’t know what to do with Elnor, who’s a cool fighting machine, so we kill him off. Just kill him off! So he’s not in any scenes! But then of course bring him back at the end when there’s a couple of fight scenes. As a hologram ffs.
- don’t have enough for Seven and Raff to do but we buddy them up to do what one character could have done. Because they’re in a relationship, except that isn’t really developed at all through the episodes
- much is made of Q coming back, and he says all kinds of quirky things, but then we hardly see him and there’s little interweaving of what he said into the story
- much is made of Whoopi Goldberg coming back, and she gets one scene. Although I’m guessing she gets to be in the final episode. Some kind of face off between Q and Guinan would have been a better use of them both?
- apparently the only reason for what the Borg does is because the queen is lonely. Give me a break.
- don’t know what to do with Jirati so we meld her with the queen and she becomes the new Borg queen. Heavy sigh. It’s as if the writers only wrote one episode at a time and backed themselves into a corner where that was what they had to do.

Overall, very tedious. The last few episodes I could only watch a bit at a time, they were boring, ponderous and child like. Picard and Laris running through the underground tunnels. They hear Soong after them. Picard says to Laris in a loud, booming voice “THIS WAY!” But, you know, it’s Picard, so everything has to be said in a deep Shakespearean voice…PASS…THE BUTTER…PLEASE!

Anyway, wouldn’t be surprised if Rios stays with the Dr and kid to conveniently make a little family - god the writing is so corny and one dimensional - and Raff and Seven will get it together and go off on their own, Agnes is now the Borg queen so she’s off to reconcile the galaxy, Elnor is dead so he’s taken care of…gee, looks like they’re clearing the decks of these boring characters doing tedious things so they can have a full on TNG reunion next season. What a good idea.

I was going to say at least it wasn’t as bad as The Book of Boba Fett, but at least that had episodes of the Mandalorian inserted into it, with baby Yoda and new-and-improved Luke as well

I think I’ll enjoy Strange New Worlds

 

[fireproof78]

I was going to say at least it wasn’t as bad as The Book of Boba Fett, but at least that had episodes of the Mandalorian inserted into it, with baby Yoda and new-and-improved Luke as well

That's damning with faint praise. Book of Boba Fett received much the same criticism.

 

[Bay17]

That's damning with faint praise. Book of Boba Fett received much the same criticism.

Agreed. I thought Boba was very poor

 

[gweeps]

Speaking of Star Wars, I wish the only ones I'd seen were the first three movies. I really regret wasting my time with the early 00's instalments, and haven't watched anything else.

 

[Bay17]

Speaking of Star Wars, I wish the only ones I'd seen were the first three movies. I really regret wasting my time with the early 00's instalments, and haven't watched anything else.

The only time I ever skipped a uni lecture (I was working at the time and couldn’t afford the time to catch up) was to see The Empire Strikes Back as soon as it came out

Ah the good times

 

[Turtletrekker]

Speaking of Star Wars, I wish the only ones I'd seen were the first three movies. I really regret wasting my time with the early 00's instalments, and haven't watched anything else.

You're missing nothing on the theatrical front, Rogue One included, but there has been some stellar material made for television.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Speaking of Star Wars, I wish the only ones I'd seen were the first three movies. I really regret wasting my time with the early 00's instalments, and haven't watched anything else.

I've found that the prequel movies have been made retroactively worthwhile by Clone Wars, Rebels and The Bad Batch, which really flesh out the world they created. Also The Mandalorian is great.

Shout out to the ladies who've been doing the action work this season. In the past, it's always been the guys who've gone down to Earth (Kirk, Spock, Chakotay, Paris, etc.). leaving the women on the ship.

Hey, what about Dax and Kira! Not that they did much ass kicking in Past Tense.

 

[Kaelef]

Speaking of Star Wars, I wish the only ones I'd seen were the first three movies. I really regret wasting my time with the early 00's instalments, and haven't watched anything else.

The latest SW movies are similar to modern Trek in that the creators know pretty well how to fire up our nostalgia for the earlier installments and are good at tapping on old characters and their adventures, but then don't know where to go with that once they've gotten that far. Little new of substance is added, so it all ends up feeling empty and forgettable.

Another similarity: they look great, which helps mask their emptiness.

The Mandalorian was a surprising exception: they largely created new characters and circumstances in the existing SW universe, which was a great thing. But the initial freshness is already wearing off, and they're already leaning on tapping into stuff we already know on a very superficial level (Book of Boba Fett, bringing back Luke...) It's still a decent show, but it's definitely lost some of that early shine.

 

[fireproof78]

Speaking of Star Wars, I wish the only ones I'd seen were the first three movies. I really regret wasting my time with the early 00's instalments, and haven't watched anything else.

Waste? Hardly. While I care little for the PT, as several writers and fans I talk to have noted Star Wars was in a bit of a rut in the books and comics, which basically was repetition of the OT more often than not, rebellions, and Imperial warlords. The PT expanded a lot of the lore and knowledge in a powerful way.

While I don't agree with many of the installments, I will always appreciate the world building that came from it.

I've found that the prequel movies have been made retroactively worthwhile by Clone Wars, Rebels and The Bad Batch, which really flesh out the world they created. Also The Mandalorian is great.

Worthwhile? Eh...ok, I guess. The Mandalorian is great? No I can't quite agree to that. If Filoni was given the ability to just create his own world he would have done far better.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I've found that the prequel movies have been made retroactively worthwhile by Clone Wars, Rebels and The Bad Batch, which really flesh out the world they created. Also The Mandalorian is great.

There is a fan cut out there that is something like four and a half hours that combines Revenge of the Sith with the Siege of Mandalore, and I would love to see those two stories spliced together. Clone Wars and "Siege" in particular, make RotS feel all the more tragic. With the emphasis on "feel". A lot of the movie falls flat emotionally for me. A lot of it feels like they are just tiking off the plot points that we knew all had to be covered before the end of the movie. The Siege of Mandalore brings a lot more genuine emotion into the tale.

 

[Lord Garth]

I like the episodes of PIC Season 2 on an individual level, but it's adding up to less than the sum of its parts as a whole. The more I think about this, the more this is dawning on me. I'll hold off going into detailed specifics until after the season finale.

No, I don't think the season as a whole is bad. But it did start off a lot stronger than it's finishing, it lost focus, and I'm thinking about so many things they could've focused on or expanded on but didn't. Q is damn interesting, but not much is being done with him. The Watchers are even more interesting, but we're not finding out a lot more about them. A lot more could've been done with Kore. A lot more could've been done with Picard's ancestor. A lot could've been done exploring Seven being 100% Human for the first time, before they made her part-Borg again.

However they wrap this up in the 10th episode, it's not going to be enough to make up for the meandering.

There's a lot good too. The deepening of Picard's backstory being chief among them. The Confederation being another. The Borg Queen has been great. And so has the Jurati subplot. And so was the Mission: Impossible style infiltration into the party. But there's so much more that could've been done overall.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

I think maybe it suffers from having to push every character's story forward a little bit each story. Perhaps it would've worked better if once they'd arrived in the present day, each character got their focus story (Raffi dealing with her guilt about Elnor, Seven adjusting to being human, Rios and Teresa, Picard's mysterious tragic past), which would've given the series enough time to explore each of their situations in depth, and given us a little closure each week. Though to make this work properly they'd need more interesting and story-relevant goals than 'try to find what bus Rios is on' and 'convince Guinan that the world doesn't suck'.

 

[Danja]

I think maybe it suffers from having to push every character's story forward a little bit each story. Perhaps it would've worked better if once they'd arrived in the present day, each character got their focus story (Raffi dealing with her guilt about Elnor, Seven adjusting to being human, Rios and Teresa, Picard's mysterious tragic past), which would've given the series enough time to explore each of their situations in depth, and given us a little closure each week. Though to make this work properly they'd need more interesting and story-relevant goals than 'try to find what bus Rios is on' and 'convince Guinan that the world doesn't suck'.

Had they glossed over finding out what bus Rios was on, the fans would've been screaming, "PLOT HOLE!"

There just isn't going to be pleasing some people.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

The trouble with the Rios on a Bus saga, I reckon, is that it has Jurati making an arrangement with the Borg queen to help Seven and Raffi out of a problem they brought upon themselves, so that they can save Rios from a problem he brought upon himself, due a situation he was in because of an accident. It makes the whole thing feel like a waste of time and the victory they get by freeing the other people on the bus feels more like a horrible mistake because of all the talk of butterflies.

It seems to me they should've either cut the ICE plot entirely or have Rios get himself put on the bus deliberately in order to achieve an important step in their mission to save the future.