Kirk is a soldier. He would follow orders. Spock volunteered him, and had been making overtures to Gorkon.
As far as plot points I never had an issue with it.
As far as plot points I never had an issue with it.
Star Trek VI. the stupidity of Starfleet and Spock for choosing Kirk to meet with Gorkon
- Thread starter urrutiap
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I think it's another example of how easy it is for us to "forgive and rationalize" absolutely ridiculous things in movies or episodes that we enjoy, while we'll revolt and vomit if similar plot foolishness shows up in movies or episodes we don't enjoy.
TUC is over-flowing with things (this is just one of them) that make absolutely no sense. But since we generally enjoy TUC...we let the stupidity slide. If you were to see these same items in a film or series you don't like...these same things are the things you're going to call out as reasons for why what you don't like is inferior / awful / stupid / TEH BAD RIGHTING.
TUC is over-flowing with things (this is just one of them) that make absolutely no sense. But since we generally enjoy TUC...we let the stupidity slide. If you were to see these same items in a film or series you don't like...these same things are the things you're going to call out as reasons for why what you don't like is inferior / awful / stupid / TEH BAD RIGHTING.
I think part of my ease is the fact that I a). saw it quite young, and b). read the novel a half-dozen times. There are little bits and bobs woven throughout that make the film more palatable in terms of ridiculousness.
Yes, I will absolutely rationalize away inconsistencies because of my enjoyment but also because few things in the world of entertainment will warrant my ire.
Oh I agree. I just find it......interesting...that's all.
That's often the case, but as someone who does NOT hold this film in high esteem, I don't have any problem with Kirk being in the role of escort. It makes sense in the context of Star Trek and Kirk's own history as a soldier/diplomat in the series as well as figurehead in the films. Spock was also transitioning from officer to Ambassador here, so they DID bring someone along. Just not the "full ambassador" Kirk was using as an excuse to get out of a dirty job. Which is exactly how I took that line. I'm not defending my favorite film, I'm just saying why I feel like it's not a problem. This plot point works for me. I have two dozen others that don't. The film is a first-draft style mess and if Star Trek V were a much better film, I doubt TUC would have been as highly regarded as it is. There's just as much stupidity in it, it's just a different flavor stupid than the the previous film.
Incredibly interesting.
Here's my thing with Star Trek and stupidity. When it is "stupid" and the actors buy in to it fully they can sell me on the stupid. With TFF there is a little bit too much of a *wink* towards the audience with some of the silliness. TUC, as ridiculous as it can be, is quite earnest in its presentation. To quote "Pearl Harbor" a moment, "It's very good bullshit, sir."
I don't disagree with Kirk being sent to escort Kronos One to Earth. I just think it's lunacy that someone from the UFP government was not there. It's like sending the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower over to Russia to escort a ship carrying Putin back to the US...and the Eisenhower is basically just crewed by her captain and command staff, with no diplomatic experts or ambassadors aboard. It would never happen...not in a million years.
If this is supposed to be one of the most monumental and historic moments in recent galactic times, you don't send essentially what is a military captain out to meet the Chancellor of your most deadly and consistent rival. It's not a military or agency operation. It's something major and in the highest interests of the United Federation of Planets and it's allies. This operation would have undoubtedly been under government jurisdiction, with the Enterprise and her crew serving as security for the operation...but with ambassadors and diplomats on hand for whatever may come up.
Ahhhh....see now this is where I disagree. I think that TUC is a movie that is very winky-winky at the audience. TFF has its issues, no doube... but it's going for the "summer blockbuster Indiana Jones fun/adventure/comedy/drama" thing in a pretty self-aware way, which I think it does very well. TUC on the other hand, sets itself up as a major intergalactic event...and a tense brinksmanship type story similar to "Hunt for Red October." I think it's tonally inconsistent and even inappropriate at times for the themes and story it's trying to pull off, as a major event in history...it feels small, messy and inconsistent. I think the earnestness of its presentation is actually part of the problem that makes it LESS believable than TFF. TFF is popcorn fun, and it knows it and goes with it. TUC is pretentious about how big, important, literate, allegorical, etc it is....only to not measure up at all to its own sense of self-importance.
I guess I don't see it as self-important. It's taking a large historical event but framing it in a very personal way.
Could be. Maybe I should try to re-frame it in that context, because that makes good sense.
I really enjoyed TUC when I first saw it...but it hasn't aged well at all for me. I can't help but look at is as a very pretentious (even the title of the film is an eye-roller) wannabe in may respects, with lots of plot and tonal issues that keep me from being properly immersed in the story.
I mean, it's a Shakespeare quote. Of course it comes across as pretentious. That's how we use Shakespeare nowadays.
The difference for me is something like this: TFF focused on the core three guys and, in order to distract us from the obvious premise, the film was a fun-filled roller coaster ride. So while a few of the jokes really are just too stupid to land, and Kirk handles the "brother reveal" like a ten year old, it’s a third season episode with a somewhat larger budget. BTW, I love the third season.
TUC was meant to be a “more fitting wrap up” that was sold as a dead serious conspiracy thriller / mystery. But it’s undermined by really bad directing of the extras (shocked faces, over emoting and “comin’ thru!”), awful meta humor and some very sloppy story editing. Nicky Meyer overcrowds his sets with a lot of loitering extras wearing nametags we can’t read. I would let it all go if it was meant to be a romp, like the previous two. However, there were tension deflating jokes all over the place (the Director’s cut is even worse), the mystery was non-existent and some of the overacting by the supporting cast is distracting. Plus, they come off as idiots. Nobody thought to check Crewman Dax’s file before they entrapped him? And they did this in front of a dozen people. None of his bunkmates thought to say “hey his feet could never fit in those boots”? I can watch TFF over and over and think “damn this is FUN!” Yet TUC, which could have been the best film in the series, is defeated every time by self indulgence and just as many jokes as the previous film. And it LOOKS cheaper than TFF because of the reuse of the TNG sets. It feels like a TV movie at times. Man, I really wish Meyer took TUC as seriously as TWOK instead of smoking his own reputation. But after TVH, none of the films seemed to take any of it seriously.
Anyway, this is all just how I see it. I don’t hate TUC, but it’s not as enjoyable for me as the first three or the fifth. My expectations were a bit higher than they delivered and their main trailer is gold (the one with the actual scenes from the film). THAT was the film I wanted.
Well, that is certainly an opinion.
I cannot even agree with half of it. I don't take it super seriously it's a conspiracy but it's out there in more of a cat and mouse kind of way. It reminds me a bit of "The Eraser" vs. Mission Impossible. So even though there is a seriousness to it I don't take it seriously. Largely because I'm taking it through Kirk's viewpoint. He is feeling super serious about it but in a personal way. He has to work with the trauma of the past to move in to the "undiscovered country." That's the fun of it for me.
Yeah, it certainly is!
Absolutely fair. I'm generally in the minority with my feelings on the original series films. I love the first three, TSFS being my all time favorite. Then TFF, TUC and waaaaaaaaaaay down at the bottom is TVH.
I expect no one else to agree with that.
That is, almost word-for-word, how I feel about it.
I certainly do not, in any way, hate (or even dislike) TUC. But, for a film that gets heaps and heaps of praise as a virtual Star Trek masterpiece, it's really not that great. Maybe it's just me reacting to being of a different mind than most fans...but I just don't see it as being an upper-tier Trek film. It's enjoyable, I re-visit it frequently, and it has some great scenes:
1. The assassination of Gorkon is as riveting as the sneak attack in TWOK,
2. The battle over Khitomer is pretty good, although Chang quoting random Shakespeare is cringy and takes all the tension away.
3. The trial on Q'onos is really well done and well-performed
4. The dialogue between Kirk and McCoy in the barracks on Rura Penthe is excellent, as is the dialogue between Kirk and Spock in Spock's quarters.
But there's just too much cringy, poorly paced and edited crap throughout as well...
1. The dinner scene is an absolute mess, for example. I've seen behind-the-scenes footage of this scene and it's very apparent that they hacked the hell out of it for some strange reason in post production...and it really does not play well.
2. Kirk and Martia fighting is the epitome of meta wink-wink and the scene makes no sense
3. The dialogue at the end is awkward as the Excelsior is leaving orbit. I can't put my finger on it...but it just doesn't feel...genuine (it's made up for almost immediately by Kirk's final log entry and the sign-off, though).
You've pointed some of it out, but there's also just a sloppy, first-draft feel to the story in many places that really bothers me.
1. How can the advanced sensors of the 23rd century not have seen that a photon torpedo launched from a cloaked ship beneath the Enterprise, completely refuting (and exonerating) the idea that Starfleet/Kirk was the aggressor?
2. How can advanced 23rd century forensics not determine that a torpedo was never loaded and launched from the Enterprise torpedo bay?
3. How can advanced 23rd century sensors and scanning equipment not find Klingon blood, a completely foreign substance, aboard the Enterpise?
4. How can the Enterprise be 1,000 lightyears from Federation Headquarters in rendezvousing with Gorkon, yet never engaged warp drive, and yet the journey seemingly only takes less than a day?
5. Why is the Excelsior headed home from Beta Quadrant "under full impulse power?" Was Sulu looking to get back to Earth 2,000 years later or something?
6. What the hell is a subspace shockwave, and just how far is the Excelsior from Q'onos anyway?
7. After an explosion of that magnitude (and significance), Sulu just calls up a Klingon head-of-state to check in and say "hello," and they actually answer the phone?? Naaaaahhhhhhhhh.......
8. After what happened in deep space, the security at the Khitomer Conference is basically a sieve....with huge holes cut into it. I mean, how does this sniper get to wander in with a weapon in his brief case? How does he get to walk up to a perch from which he'll shoot the president? How are their no ships in orbit to defend the conference from idiots like Chang (or Kirk for that matter...particularly given that Starfleet KNEW the Enterprise was refusing direct orders at the time). It's absolute foolishness. Security at events during the early 1900's was more competent than this.
And, the big one for me...because it's foundational....:
Why are there concerns within Starfleet that peace with the Klingon Empire will suddenly make the fleet obsolete? Why would only the "scientific and exploration programs be unaffected?" Are the Klingons the only threat to the Federation? What about the Romulans, Gorn, Tholians, etc? What about other unknown powers or threats? The entire premise makes no sense from that perspective. Valeris says her motive is "saving Starfleet"...but Starfleet shouldn't be going anywhere just because the Klingons are thinking of finally coming to the table.
It's all too convoluted for me to consider it one of the great Star Trek films. I like it...but it's not a masterpiece. It's more like what people accuse most "modern Trek" of being, which is a "don't think about it too hard and just enjoy it for what it is" experience.
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The damned “book” scene on the bridge could have been a nail biter. Great, the Universal Translator could be recognized. So Uhura has to do it but her Klingon is a little rusty. So she gets some words wrong (and maybe she looks them up on a small tricorder instead of a library sitting under the consoles waiting to catch on fire with the first explosion of sparks), but in the end, the Klingons buy it and they can STILL end with a laugh with the same punchline. Yet, she looks smart and you don’t have the unknown woman in the uniform, along with Chekov, miming laughter to get everyone to join in. Really, Meyer? Direct Koenig to “ho ho” silently?
“Only Nixon can go to China” was pushing it, but fine. Then, the Shakespeare quotes and the Sherlock Holmes thing from Spock….again, self-indulgent because Meyer is a Holmes and literature. Yet, we give Shatner a hard time for adding horses to his action scene…
Does the alarm go off when you vaporize someone or just use a phaser? The movie isn’t sure.
Why make it a point for Excelsior to catalog gaseous anomalies only to have the Enterprise have the equipment in the climax? Was this a last minute change to make the Enterprise the hero? Whatever, it’s sloppy.
Thank Zod the theatrical edition omitted the Scooby Doo ending because that was another layer of awful.
I agree, though, I do enjoy the movie but one of “the best?” Naaaah. Not even close. It’s aged poorly. But the story is great, the performances by the leads are wonderful and most of the effects are great (well, the Enterprise is overlit). The Klingon ship explosion is incredibly cathartic and so iconic that Generations is cheapened by its use. That whole battle is fantastic, even with the copious amounts of overdubbed dialog.
“Only Nixon can go to China” was pushing it, but fine. Then, the Shakespeare quotes and the Sherlock Holmes thing from Spock….again, self-indulgent because Meyer is a Holmes and literature. Yet, we give Shatner a hard time for adding horses to his action scene…
Does the alarm go off when you vaporize someone or just use a phaser? The movie isn’t sure.
Why make it a point for Excelsior to catalog gaseous anomalies only to have the Enterprise have the equipment in the climax? Was this a last minute change to make the Enterprise the hero? Whatever, it’s sloppy.
Thank Zod the theatrical edition omitted the Scooby Doo ending because that was another layer of awful.
I agree, though, I do enjoy the movie but one of “the best?” Naaaah. Not even close. It’s aged poorly. But the story is great, the performances by the leads are wonderful and most of the effects are great (well, the Enterprise is overlit). The Klingon ship explosion is incredibly cathartic and so iconic that Generations is cheapened by its use. That whole battle is fantastic, even with the copious amounts of overdubbed dialog.
Huh?
Paranoia can do that to a person. The biggest thing was that the Klingon threat was growing and a back and forth in such a way that the idea of not having to be constantly on guard is actually really difficult. It isn't that Starfleet is necessary going anywhere-it's that fighting Klingons evolved in to more of their "reason to be."
Absolutely. Foreign powers keep track of each other and their movements. A big explosion is going to draw attention. Of course Starfleet is going to know whom to contact to determine if this is a security concern.
I realize I can answer point for point on this, largely because this is how my brain enjoys this film, but this one is about as consistent with Star Trek as it gets. Security sucks and the heroes have to win.
Also, given the rampaging paranoia who would be providing security at this conference? The Organians?
Chekov asked why the boots weren't just "waporized." Valeris fires a phaser, vaporizes the pot and states that nobody can fire an unauthorized phaser aboard a starship.
Later when they find the bodies of Burke and Samno, Bones says they were killed by a phaser fired on heavy stun at close range and wonders aloud why they weren't vaporized. Chekov says because it would have set off the alarm.
So what sets off the alarm? Firing the phaser itself or vaporizing? The movie is not sure. There's no indication that Valeris authorized the phaser to be fired. That would've been the perfect chance to mention it.
Oh, well, I don't necessarily agree that firing a phaser is the problem.
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