Star Trek VI. the stupidity of Starfleet and Spock for choosing Kirk to meet with Gorkon

[Kor]

Sarek was quite familiar with the old concept of the "Vulcan hello," meeting the Klingons with a show of force. For hundreds of years the Vulcans considered this to be essential in dealings with the Klingons. So maybe sending in a battle-hardened soldier like Kirk was the diplomatic equivalent to that.



Kor

 

[STEPhon IT]

I agree that it’s absolutely ridiculous. Even when I was a teenager and saw the movie for the first time, I remember thinking to myself that it was insane to send a ship captain in the military to rendezvous with the head of state of your greatest enemy, who you are about to negotiate a historic and unprecedented peace with.

Even if you send Kirk on that mission because of his proven military prowess, there is no way you don’t staff the Enterprise with an entire brigade of Federation diplomatic personnel, ambassadors and specialists. In TOS, for infinitely less sensitive situations, they always had a Federation diplomat there to run that part of the mission.

It’s one of the many reasons I don’t love TUC as much as most people do. The foundational premise that they’d send Kirk out there alone with no diplomatic back-up or oversight is completely inane.

Even the script seems to acknowledge this as being under-baked stupidity, as Kirk himself protests that “a full ambassador would be better equipped…”

You're exactly right about this, the way the situation was set up it was bound to fail, and Kirk knew it. You would think Starfleet would properly vetted officers before considering anyone for such an important task. Everything has to be right when encountering such a dangerous enemy, no slip ups or anything which could cause a galactic war. This also means medical tools and such has to be in tip top shape, so just in case a Klingon, more importantly a leader of that camp, gets injured they could assist and help in the care of his/her welfare.

Jesus Christ, we had the Chief Medical Officer who had knowledge about Klingon anatomy 25 years prior to the assassination with medical technology of its time in "The Trouble with Tribbles", had no clue of the subject matter in the movie with what I assumed with medical tools which were advanced. This was unbelievable and doesn't make anyone from Starfleet look good.

 

[fireproof78]

Reading vitals and saving a person from a clean phaser wound just might be two different skill sets.

 

[JaxsBrokenHeart]

With TUC in general, it's one of those films I still like, it's just that the holes from the rushed production do become more obvious over time. At times, I wonder if Harve Bennett's absence after the Academy movie rejection also plays a role in its weaknesses, as he might have been someone to be a counterbalance against some of Meyer's creative choices.

Oddly enough, Starfleet sending Kirk really doesn't bother me as much as the idea of Spock springing it on him at the meeting without speaking to him privately first. The latter was often a by the book officer, but it feels slightly out of character for him to both not logically predict Kirk's objections given the events of SFS and for him to not have any communication with his former commanding officer and oldest friend about such a critical and difficult diplomatic mission before its generally announced.

Part of it is rooted in that first act just feeling rushed because it has to get its critical points to get the main plot going. Even as solid as the scene between the two of them after the peace talks are declared, it feels a bit like a potentially better scene that could have happened before it was lost. Kirk initially warmly reuniting with Spock only for the mood to shift once the latter reveals (albeit somewhat sympathetically) the planned conference and the former's role in it and then followed by a quietly intense back and forth about the matter? I don't know, could have been something special.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Are we certain Kirk didn't sleep with Azetbur, and how do we know that that wasn't Spock's plan all along?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Reading vitals and saving a person from a clean phaser wound just might be two different skill sets.

Earth made phasers may have specific characteristics to hurt, pain or kill Klingons.

Depending on they suspect the next war is going to be with, then the latest weapon of choice should surely be tailored to malign that species.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Earth made phasers may have specific characteristics to hurt, pain or kill Klingons.

Depending on they suspect the next war is going to be with, then the latest weapon of choice should surely be tailored to malign that species.

Its a giant feat to think Starfleet, who have a laundry list of saving lives, would discriminate a species. But lets say it did, in particular to the device, McCoy should've known if such a malignancy was occurring; his statement to Kirk was an admittance of his incompetence.
Also, I need to mention that before the tragedy, Klingon officials witnessed Kirk's unprofessionalism by treating them with an alien alcohol which was considered illegal. Way to go to show your best representation of yourselves and UFP. Either way it doesn't look good on Starfleet.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Romulan Ale was not illegal on Q'onoS, or might not be illegal on Q'onoS circa 2391.

Kinda like an American smoking Cuban Cigars in Mexico.

In the 2260s Klingon manual labour was used to build a Romulan fleet in exchange for giving the Klingons cloaking technology, but by the 2360s the Romulans where trying to push over the legal Klingon Government for shits and giggles.

Captain Von Trapp mentioned "interstellar law" in this movie, but a Star Ship is Federation soil, and a Klingon ship is Klingon soil. If they wanted the Romulans as cosignitors to this sweeping pact to protect every one in interstellar space, they'd hardly uphold a mandate that decries them as the baddies, where they can't drink their own hootch... Prohibition? Well that's a backwards reason for why Romulan Ale is Illegal in the Federation... Although I think there was a scene in DS9 where they said something like "It doesn't taste as good now that it's legal."

 

[STEPhon IT]

I have no clue about those years you're mentioning, I know it was definitely not from the movie TUC. There was a Klingon official who's clearly stunned he was served a beverage and he asked Kirk thinking it was illegal. Kirk mentioned something about the advantages of being away, but the official didn't appear pleased by his answer. It doesn't make Kirk look good.

 

[fireproof78]

Kirk is not to look good until he learns his lesson. It's called penance.

 

[dupersuper]

Sarek was quite familiar with the old concept of the "Vulcan hello," meeting the Klingons with a show of force. For hundreds of years the Vulcans considered this to be essential in dealings with the Klingons. So maybe sending in a battle-hardened soldier like Kirk was the diplomatic equivalent to that.



Kor

I actually buy this. With any one else a full diplomatic envoy would not be out of line, but these are Klingons. They'd see Kirk as a worthy warrior, fit to meet with them.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I have no clue about those years you're mentioning, I know it was definitely not from the movie TUC. There was a Klingon official who's clearly stunned he was served a beverage and he asked Kirk thinking it was illegal. Kirk mentioned something about the advantages of being away, but the official didn't appear pleased by his answer. It doesn't make Kirk look good.

The original series 2267 - 2269. The Production staff decided that the Romulans would start using Klingon space ship models for production reasons, which inshow was explained away as a Klingon/Romulan Alliance.

Star Trek The undiscovered Country 2291.

GORKON: You have not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the original Klingon.
CHANG: (in Klingonese) 'To be or not to be.'
KERLA: Captain Kirk, I thought Romulan ale was illegal.
KIRK: One of the advantages of being a thousand light years from Federation headquarters.
McCOY: To you, Chancellor Gorkon, one of the architects of our future.
ALL: Chancellor!
SCOTT: Perhaps we are looking at something of that future here.

Star Trek the Next Generation 2367 - 2368 The Klingon Civil War, which had Sela, Tasha's Romulan daughter, overthrowing the existing regime to establish a puppet government commanded from Romulus.

 

[suarezguy]

TUC was meant to be a “more fitting wrap up” that was sold as a dead serious conspiracy thriller / mystery. But it’s undermined by really bad directing of the extras (shocked faces, over emoting and “comin’ thru!”), awful meta humor and some very sloppy story editing.

I can watch TFF over and over and think “damn this is FUN!” Yet TUC, which could have been the best film in the series, is defeated every time by self indulgence and just as many jokes as the previous film.

Well, that is certainly an opinion.

I cannot even agree with half of it. I don't take it super seriously it's a conspiracy but it's out there in more of a cat and mouse kind of way.

Spock comparing himself to, claiming Sherlock Holmes (well, more likely/literally Arthur Conan Doyle) as an ancestor felt like though there were some serious themes and drama they were also quite intentionally going broad with some humor and I don't mind broad humor and I thought the mix of the two worked (especially in that it takes the overcoming prejudice angle pretty seriously but no seriously and focused in that it suggests it's that novel or profound).

I do think some of the Shakespeare quoting got excessive.

And it LOOKS cheaper than TFF because of the reuse of the TNG sets.

To me only noticeable briefly and outweighed by how much it works as a torch-passing to TNG.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Jesus Christ, we had the Chief Medical Officer who had knowledge about Klingon anatomy 25 years prior to the assassination with medical technology of its time in "The Trouble with Tribbles", had no clue of the subject matter in the movie with what I assumed with medical tools which were advanced. This was unbelievable and doesn't make anyone from Starfleet look good.

While at first glance, you make a good point, it should be remembered that McCoy scanning / recognizing Darvin as a Klingon is not the same as / or means he had enough practical experience treating and/or operating on them, since one would imagine such opportunities have never presented themselves to Starfleet medical officers.

 

[STEPhon IT]

When Chang blasted McCoy in his court trial he was incompetent, he was right. These medical tricorders, even in TOS, could read and analyze almost anything organic, but for the weak services of the movie the good doctor was completely out of character, and so was his instruments. From the Klingons' perspective this was a total sh*t show and it preceded with their first encounter on the Enterprise.

 

[fireproof78]

When Chang blasted McCoy in his court trial he was incompetent, he was right. These medical tricorders, even in TOS, could read and analyze almost anything organic, but for the weak services of the movie the good doctor was completely out of character, and so was his instruments. From the Klingons' perspective this was a total sh*t show and it preceded with their first encounter on the Enterprise.

So, he could read a wound but not know exactly how to handle it?

Shit show my ass.

While at first glance, you make a good point, it should be remembered that McCoy scanning / recognizing Darvin as a Klingon is not the same as / or means he had enough practial experience treating and/or operating on them, since one would imagine such opportunites have never presented themselves to Starfleet medical officers.

Exactly.

Even the exact depth of Vulcan physiology required special training, and was not known to all medical personnel on the Enterprise.

 

[Qonundrum]

Why would both Starfleet and Spock choose Kirk of all people to meet up with Gorkon?

Spock especially since klingons did kill David back in Star Trek III.

Even Kirk was shocked/surprised that Spock would just vouch for Kirk. For what exactly?

Getting him out of his comfy zone? Or knew that despite it all, and his greater knowledge of Klingons, that Kirk was still the ideal choice.

Or what @publiusr said, there is a quiet undercurrent of the Starfleet folk who wanted everything to collapse?

and what the hell was Sulu and his crew doing anyway where they were out in space anyway when Praxis sort of blew up?

Just patrolling around and, just like Dirty Harry*, saw the result of a crime committed while drinking a hot beverage.


* The first one has the scene I'm referring to. The first and second movies are the only ones worth watching if you were ever wanting to try and if nothing else the first has Andrew Robinson; the remainder of his sequels just use him increasingly as a catchphrase-spewing caricature... Flanderization.

 

[McCoy's Disco Collar]

Why would both Starfleet and Spock choose Kirk of all people to meet up with Gorkon?

Spock especially since klingons did kill David back in Star Trek III.

Maybe they saw Star Trek V and realized that "Kirk is racist against Klingons" makes absolutely no sense.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Agreed. And I don't buy Kirk hating an entire race of Klingons because of a small group of douchebags murdered his son. Kruge and those idiots don't represent the entire race but you wouldn't find that in this clunky movie. The climax of Star Trek III and Star Trek V would have to be ignored in order for this ridiculous sub-plot to work; remember when Kirk boarded the bird of prey in III, right before Genesis exploded, he aims a disrupter at a unarmed Klingon and his point of view he didn't deserve to live. Typical Kirk blew him off and mentioned he'll kill him later and off to Vulcan; Kirk already resolved his issue with the person who killed his son by kicking that @sshole into molten lava.

 

[Qonundrum]

Agreed. And I don't buy Kirk hating an entire race of Klingons because of a small group of douchebags murdered his son. Kruge and those idiots don't represent the entire race but you wouldn't find that in this clunky movie. The climax of Star Trek III and Star Trek V would have to be ignored in order for this ridiculous sub-plot to work; remember when Kirk boarded the bird of prey in III, right before Genesis exploded, he aims a disrupter at a unarmed Klingon and his point of view he didn't deserve to live. Typical Kirk blew him off and mentioned he'll kill him later and off to Vulcan; Kirk already resolved his issue with the person who killed his son by kicking that @sshole into molten lava.

And only after Kruge rejected Kirk's minutes-earlier offer of saving his life because Kirk was still sincere and taking the high road despite it all. Kirk was complex.

There's nothing between III and VI that makes the line "I've never trusted Klingons and I never will" so immutably convincing. Unless Kirk was taking the high road to prevent interstellar war, especially considering the violations he racked up - including commandeering the Klingon ship. But Kruge was already batbleep crazy over the belief the Genesis Device was a tool of destruction, so if Kirk was trying to save his life just for him to tell the judge dude what really happened... On the plus side, with Kruge killed (in justified self-defence), Maltz would more likely tell the truth. Shame STIV glosses over some of those issues altogether.

It all could be read in any number of ways, people do gloss over plot elements as much as storytellers can or might, and some people pretend STV doesn't exist already...

I don't think Kirk hated all Klingons over the actions of a few nutters in the group, that's like how Scotty was said to hate all women because a woman caused an explosion that threw Scotty onto a bulkhead in "Wolf in the Fold" (which is no less cringeworthy). Yet Gene wasn't calling that episode "Apocryphal" either, but the number of Starfleet admirals-gone-bad hadn't had a high enough count for Gene to complain by then anyhow, oddly...