What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?
- Thread starter Amasov
- Start date
Blake’s 7
Above and Beyond
I mean I’ve spoiled them for anyone who didn’t know how they end. Blake’s 7 is full of defeats for the protagonists but the story went on.
Tragedy and Pyrrhic victories are extremely rich and satisfying stories in their own right. And there’s plenty sprinkled throughout Trek.
But Galaxy or universe ending gubbins don’t work as well, I feel, because making the maguffin that obvious removes the verisimilitude.
Above and Beyond
I mean I’ve spoiled them for anyone who didn’t know how they end. Blake’s 7 is full of defeats for the protagonists but the story went on.
Tragedy and Pyrrhic victories are extremely rich and satisfying stories in their own right. And there’s plenty sprinkled throughout Trek.
But Galaxy or universe ending gubbins don’t work as well, I feel, because making the maguffin that obvious removes the verisimilitude.
Remember Half a Life? And how hard Lwaxana argued and fought to convince Timcin to chose to live, and he ended up killing himself anyway for, frankly, stupid reasons? I'd say that's another pretty major example of the hero losing. Also, that episode makes me legitimately angry.
"STATE OF FLUX" - Seska basically won, because she got away.
"A TIME TO STAND" - The Federation has been losing the war for months.
"THE CHANGING FACE OF EVIL" - The Defiant, along with the entire fleet, was destroyed.
"Data's Day" - The spy got away completely.
"DISTANT ORIGIN" - The crew did not win. They were completely at the mercy of the Voth. Had Gegen not done his recanting, the show would stop.
There are others, but those immediately spring to mind.
I didn't recall that episode. Sorry my TNG knowledge is limited so I will bow to your knowledge.
See, I don't think I buy the bluff at all any more. So, while I'm sure people would like it I am not one of them. I don't buy in to it any more.
Thank you. By and large those don't stick with me.
No worries, I only thought of it so quickly because it's one of my favourite episodes on TNG and because the downer-ending stuck with me because it really surprised me.
That's understandable. I still say these days it frequently is possible for television protagonists to lose, but yeah even that usually happens in predictable patterns.
"Cogenitor(ENT)" - Trip thinks he's doing the right thing by teaching the Vissian Cogenitor to read and assert their independence as a sovereign being but then they commit suicide, the Vissian plans for the pregnancy and planned family are disrupted if not permanently ended and Earth-Vissian relations are thrown into an indefinite limbo. And the episode ends with Archer angrily reprimanding Trip for his actions, however well-intentioned.
Nobody won.
Nobody won.
I wish I had said that...
Ah, you must have posted that as I was writing my post... it was lengthy.
It is very possible but I don't think that precludes use of galaxy ending threats.
Maybe I'm not explaining myself as well as I could, and with @Farscape One and @1001001 adding their thoughts I probably lost track of my actual point.
More my point is I don't see galaxy ending threats as being boring. Our heroes can still "loose" in the sense that they suffer set backs. The same thing happened in recent Marvel films. I guess I don't regard singular episodes as losing because, generally, they don't carry much weight. The consequences are not felt. Data may loose Lal but does that affect his character going forward? I genuinely don't know since I can barely recall the episode.
To me, a loss means they suffer consequences, emotional, physical, etc. As in, after that episode there is a weight carried to the next episode. That's why galaxy ending doesn't bother me because if they suffer loss there is usually a sense of urgency, of weight to it, that matters. Maybe others are putting in more weight because they are invested with the characters, like Data in the Offspring, and I lack that investment. I don't know.
What it comes down to is investment in the characters, I think. If it's galaxy ending then I truly don't mind that. Not because I think the characters won't loose; because I don't believe that for a minute. But because I want to see the drama come from such a situation.
Hopefully that made sense.
ETA: To be clear, I am not trying to shift goal posts and say the listed episodes are not "losses" for the characters. They clearly are intended as such. But, at the risk of nitpicking, the characters don't "lose" in the sense that they are permanently change. Even if I know the galaxy won't end the effort to save it usually results in some major change, some loss to the characters. That's more what I expect.
Perhaps bottle episodes are better at it. I could be completely wrong. I just don't (currently) find the same value in it.
@Richard S. Ta asked why TOS was different? Well, TOS was really the first show I had actively paid attention to and was surprised by the lack of consequences. As I became more familiar with what I wanted from a story the lack of follow through consequences was a little annoying to me. And it finally just became very casual. I didn't care about the characters because any loss was overwritten, grief erased.
It's not as enjoyable for me. Mileage no doubt varies. My only push back is "galaxy ending threats are boring." Well, they are not for me.
Last edited:
IMHO the big issue with modern serialized Trek isn't so much the stakes as the lack of consequence past the plot arc. Every season is written as a single episode, but more like a single episode of VOY than DS9. Characters learn no lessons and have no coherent changes which carry into the next season. They just shake the Etch-A-Sketch.
Thanks for clarifying, and that makes sense.
But I still maintain that the smaller stakes are typically more personal because the episode revolves primarily on that character, like Data in "The Offspring". (Thank you for posting that example... I cry every time at that ending.)
TOS, TNG, and VGR mainly, you have a point in that consequences don't seem to carry over. But a lot of great personal scenes occur in those episodes. Lal thanking Data for her life... Nog breaking down and explaining to Vic why he is afraid to go back out in the real world... Kira describing how she missed her dad's death... etc.
But I still maintain that the smaller stakes are typically more personal because the episode revolves primarily on that character, like Data in "The Offspring". (Thank you for posting that example... I cry every time at that ending.)
TOS, TNG, and VGR mainly, you have a point in that consequences don't seem to carry over. But a lot of great personal scenes occur in those episodes. Lal thanking Data for her life... Nog breaking down and explaining to Vic why he is afraid to go back out in the real world... Kira describing how she missed her dad's death... etc.
Does that make it more meaningful? Genuine question.
Yes, because you are living it with them.
Data losing Lal, for instance... android or not, he lost his daughter. That is a sad thing, especially for a character like Data who was, by all measures in that episode, a good father.
Or Kira, after staying with Ghemor during his final hours, recounting how much she needed to be there not just for him, but fir her own sake because she owed it to her father, which she missed because she was out on a revenge attack.
Nog... even more directly affected him, because he was going through genuine PTSD, and it's referenced again later.
Absolutely, those scenes genuinely matter and make it very meaningful.
Data losing Lal, for instance... android or not, he lost his daughter. That is a sad thing, especially for a character like Data who was, by all measures in that episode, a good father.
Or Kira, after staying with Ghemor during his final hours, recounting how much she needed to be there not just for him, but fir her own sake because she owed it to her father, which she missed because she was out on a revenge attack.
Nog... even more directly affected him, because he was going through genuine PTSD, and it's referenced again later.
Absolutely, those scenes genuinely matter and make it very meaningful.
I can be empathetic in the scene. I feel like it doesn't matter though when it skips on after the next episode. It's a hard balance to strike.
I feel it in the moment and...that's it.
Those Kira and Nog episodes are actually an example of consequences carrying over, as they follow on from the events of Second Skin and The Siege of AR-558.
Nog is a good example.
But that also proves the point that bottle episodes were consequences actually move to a future episode have more weight too.
Yup. Good thing a show like DS9 eventually strove for carry throughs. Such a shame the writers of it seem to be the only Trek showrunners who get how difficult it is to find a balance between episodic and serialized series, and yet still went for broke.
Okay, just so we're all on the same page, the term "bottle episode" refers to a money-saving story restricted to the standing sets, with minimal effects and guest actors right?
Yes. Even something as groundbreaking for a Trek series as Voyager's 'Distant Origin'.
Similar threads
- Locked
