Jennifer Lien

[Orphalesion]

I'm sorry if you felt personally insulted by my comments. It was never my intention and I apologize for it.
But I do think that I have the right to question why all solutions for Kes must be "worst case scenarios".
Wasn't it bad enough as it was in that series?

To me what I suggested it isn't a "worst" case scenario. We see this differently. In my eyes she gets to grow, help and protect others and usher into a new era for her people. In my eyes that's a very positive ending, not a "worst case scenario"

As for my "fansite", it's a magnificent piece of work which I'm proud of.
My fanscript/fanfic are.................OK, I guess. In fact, in some places better that the ones Berman and his gang came up with and I'm not writing that to brag over my own writing. I'm actually aware of my shortcomings.

I'm not saying you can't be proud of your work. Everybody should feel accomplished after creating a full narrative. I do too. But, this is just the way it comes across to me, it might not be your intention, and I apologize if I read that wrongly...you sometimes come across as possessive of Kes and as if you expected people to treat you as an authority on her and as if you expected your fan-works to be taken as gospel by other people as if it had been an actual episode. Again I apologize if I read those situations wrong.

And honestly, wouldn't this scenario for Kes be more fun than any "worst case scenario".

My pure honest opinion?
No.
To me it seems pointless to just have Q snip his fingers and give Kes a longer lifespan ('Q fixed it' should never be the solution to a major character struggle like that, in my opinion) and then she spends her days singing Iron Maiden in Quark's. It also seems out of character for Kes, to me.

But that's my opinion, everybody can have their own head-canon. Just don't ask people "what's wrong with them" just because they don't follow your ideas or your fanfic.

 

[fireproof78]

I can understand that. But if the character can't work through it but remains some sort of wreck, far from what he/she was? Then people would start losing interest. At least I would. I remember almost quitting a series I watched once when the episodes became more about the main characters personal problems than what the series actually was supposed to be about.

Since I work with personal problems of others, and my own, I don't find it that uninteresting, but that's a mileage will vary thing. I find meaning through working through problems, and identifying solutions, not just in happy endings.

It's so downright insulting to the fans of the character and even those wh only have the slightest liking for Kes.

With due respect, Kes is probably one of my favorite characters on VOY, next to Torres. Now, I am not passionate about it but I don't feel insulted. I don't get insulted by media.

 

[Lynx]

I think that Harry combined the worst of all worlds for other overlooked characters.
Like Data, he was denied the promotion he spent years earning.
Like Worf, his love life was a series of painful calamities.
And like O'Brien, he just plain suffered a lot.

he was the "whipping boy" of the series, the one supposed to suffer so that the viewers should be moved and shed a tear. Unfortunately, it never work that way and "whipping boy" characters are often despised as boring.
personally I have no problem with Harry. Not exactly my favorite character but I don't hate or dislike him. I just wish that he had been more like what he is in the books when he's actually doing something.[/QUOTE]

I think that the limited lifespan could have been worked with. They could even have done something very special with it, sort of a "make every day count" vibe.

I don't think so because I just don't like the kind of melodrama it creates. My reasons for disliking some of those scenarios are that my real life have had too much of diseases and deaths and some of them are still bothering me. Therefore I don't want it rammed down my throat when I try to unwind and get away from the realities of life for a while.

I don't see why Kes dying of old age (at nine or ten) surrounded by friends and loved ones is anything but a happy ending. (IMO) There's no need to extend her lifespan in a quest to make her life mean more somehow.

Illness, decease and death are no "happy endings". I've seen enough of it in my life to find it not entertaining at all and definitely not happy ending. Aging is a curse and death always takes something away which can never be replaced.

This should have been what 'Fury' was about instead. And obviously the episode would need to be retitled.

They could retitle it Crap or The Insult or even better, remove it from all future airings and DVD.s of Voyager.

Harry might just be my favourite character from Voyager.

Nothing wrong with liking Harry. He's not my favorite but I don't hate or dislike him. I just wish that he had been more like what he is in the books when he's actually doing something.

To me what I suggested it isn't a "worst" case scenario. We see this differently. In my eyes she gets to grow, help and protect others and usher into a new era for her people. In my eyes that's a very positive ending, not a "worst case scenario"

Sorry, but I can't see anything positive with that, at least not for Kes. As I see it, disease and death is a "worst case scenario".

I'm not not saying you can't be proud of your work. Everybody should feel accomplished after creating a full narrative. I do too. But, this is just the way it comes across to me, it might not be your intention, and I apologize if I read that wrongly...you sometimes come across as possessive of Kes and as if you expected people to treat you as an authority on her and as if you expected your fan-works to be taken as gospel by other people as if it had been an actual episode. Again I apologize if I read those situations wrong.

But of course it is gospel, at least among die-hard Kes fans. And do you know why? Because it is!

As a matter of fact, I saved the character from a total humiliation which has pleased many fans of Kes and the story Coming Home must be revealed as The Best Voyager Episode Never Made.

Hmm....maybe a bit exaggerated but as I see it, it has a core of truth.

And no, I don't feel insulted by your comments and your opinion

My pure honest opinion?
No.
To me it seems pointless to just have Q snip his fingers and give Kes a longer lifespan ('Q fixed it' should never be the solution to a major character struggle like that, in my opinion) and then she spends her days singing Iron Maiden in Quark's. It also seems out of character for Kes, to me.

But that's my opinion, everybody can have their own head-canon. Just don't ask people "what's wrong with them" just because they don't follow your ideas or your fanfic.

Hmmm... spending her life singing Iron Maiden songs at Quark's may not be the absolute best solution for Kes. Infact, I have other suggestions which are even better. But living a happy life in the Alpha Quadrant and yes, sometimes visit Quark's and singing Iron Maiden songs must be a thousand times better than being turned into a totally crazy maniac intenteed to kill her friends, then leaving on a suttel as an old devastaded wreck in a shuttle set for the boring world she once left and then die out there in the middle of nowhere and no one who cares. I wouldn't wish that for my worst enemies (or for Berman and Braga ).

I agree that everyone can have their head-canon and I must once again apologize for my comments in that previous post. it just came out totally wrong.

But what probably made me react that way was that all of a sudden, there were some scenarios presented which all ended with Kes dying and I just started to wonder why. "Why do they all want her dead instead of healthy and living?" In fact, the "kes joins the Prophets of Bajor" was the only suggesting I did find at least somewhat acceptable.

I'm not trying to defend my post or my previous behavior in any way, just an explanation to why it happened the way it happened.

Since I work with personal problems of others, and my own, I don't find it that uninteresting, but that's a mileage will vary thing. I find meaning through working through problems, and identifying solutions, not just in happy endings.

With due respect, Kes is probably one of my favorite characters on VOY, next to Torres. Now, I am not passionate about it but I don't feel insulted. I don't get insulted by media.

But how can personal problems for someone be solved without some sort of happy ending?

 

[fireproof78]

But how can personal problems for someone be solved without some sort of happy ending?

Because solving personal problems is not a finish line; it's an ongoing process of learning, discovery, making mistakes and learning and growing and recovery again. That's why I always struggle with "happy endings" because there is more to life than just "happily ever after!" To paraphrase Harry Kim it's about the journey and the people we share it with, the connections we made along the way.

If a character learns something and grows as a person, even if there is pain in the journey, I find that more valuable. It may not be fun, or happy necessarily, but I find it more of a way to reflect on my own journey. But, again, I'm not a person who values escapism in TV shows. I find escapism in brief bouts in video games before working on myself. An ongoing process.

 

[Oddish]

To me it seems pointless to just have Q snip his fingers and give Kes a longer lifespan ('Q fixed it' should never be the solution to a major character struggle like that, in my opinion) and then she spends her days singing Iron Maiden in Quark's. It also seems out of character for Kes, to me.

No surprise, considering that the whole narrative of every show seems balanced against Q-powered solutions. Look at "Hide and Q". The one time Riker could have done some actual good with those powers Q loaned him, he gets all self-righteous and says he made a promise. And even when released from that promise, he still doesn't do anything to help the disaster victims. Instead, he tries to play the wish-granting genie, and winds up giving everyone what they don't want.

 

[Oddish]

personally I have no problem with Harry. Not exactly my favorite character but I don't hate or dislike him. I just wish that he had been more like what he is in the books when he's actually doing something

Ironically, despite my utter contempt for the showrunners' decision not to promote him, he's not really memorable to me, either. If he had been bumped off early in the series, when his low rank still made sense, I think it would have been largely unnoticed.

Illness, decease and death are no "happy endings". I've seen enough of it in my life to find it not entertaining at all and definitely not happy ending. Aging is a curse and death always takes something away which can never be replaced.

However, Trek buys into what I call the "Death is Good" trope. Whenever a person is offered immortality, whether as an android in "The Schizoid Man" or an immortal in "Hide and Q" or returning to childhood in "Rascals", they always reject it. And the trope is thousands of years old; in "The Odyssey", Ulysses declined immortality as Calypso's companion to return to his family in Ithaca.

They could retitle it Crap or The Insult or even better, remove it from all future airings and DVD.s of Voyager.

It's often very frustrating that the creators of a series made a decision or an episode that we virulently hate. Unfortunately, all we can really do is refuse to watch the episode in question.

Hmmm... spending her life singing Iron Maiden songs at Quark's may not be the absolute best solution for Kes.

Kes's voice doesn't seem that well suited to heavy metal... I could more see her doing a duet with Vic Fontaine.

 

[fireproof78]

And even when released from that promise, he still doesn't do anything to help the disaster victims.

Well, Picard told him he was right not to try. Obviously, that trumps all...

 

[Lynx]

It's often very frustrating that the creators of a series made a decision or an episode that we virulently hate. Unfortunately, all we can really do is refuse to watch the episode in question.

Which is exactly what I've done since the day i happened to watch it.
The problem is that I hate that episode so much so I can't help coming up with nasty remarks about it.

Kes's voice doesn't seem that well suited to heavy metal... I could more see her doing a duet with Vic Fontaine.

I have to agree here. And it wasn't my actual intention to have Kes singing Iron Maiden songs either.

The picture of Kes in an Iron Maiden t-shirt was actually made by me when it occurred to me that writers and especially fanfic-writers have a habit in projectioning their own interests and such on the characters they are writing about.

So I decided to really go for it by coming up with a copuple of scenarios where the Voyager crew showed their appreciation for Iron Maiden, such as:

I'm sorry Mr Kim but I can't give you a promotion because your musical taste is AWFUL!


And then, when Harry goes to Quark's to drown his sorrows in alcohol

Sorry Harry!
Here's the reason why I was promoted last week and you weren't!


Obviously Harry has changed his interests in the hope of being promoted

Not to mention this little artwork of one of my absolute favorites who, of course also has to like Iron Maiden

But how can I refuse to fulfil a wish about Kes performing with Vic Fontaine, which actually is a great idea!

So here we have good, old Vic Fontaine singing the James Darren hit Goodbye Cruel World with Kes And The Kestrels at backing vocals and Odo playing the ocarina.

Look up the song on Youtube, listen to the song, look at the picture and enjoy!

 

[at Quark's]

I have to quote Tim Bogert when he was somewhat disappointed with the weak reply from the audience when Beck, Bogert and Appice were playing in Japan and Bogert tried to make the audience sing along:

What's the matter with you people?

Why is everyone coming up with such morbid "ends" for Kes? Why must Kes absolutely being killed off or turned into a monster, some energy-being mumbo-jumbo, some crazy idiot and who knows what instead of simply being a Star Trek character with a normal happy life. Not to mention a re-run of the worst episode ever made in any TV series.

Am I the only one who thinks that she deserves better than some twisted end in a morbid story.

You people must really hate her!

"Oh, my eyes they see but I can't believe
Oh, my heart is heavy as I turn my back and leave"

"Sea Of Madness"
Iron Maiden

OK, let's go by several points.

First of all, I don't hate Kes. I greatly resented Fury, and I've only said so on this forum about, oh, fifty times. I hated that the decision was taken to script her off the show. But given that she had to go anyway, The Gift was about as nice an ending to the character as you were going to get. I mean - what would have been the alternative? Giving her the 'Neelix' solution (i.e. finding an Ocampa colony and letting her stay there)? Kill her off? So, in itself the Gift wasn't a bad ending for her, I just resented that she had to go. Fury has none of these excuses. It debases the character without any need just to tell a weak one-off story in which she has gone mad. Should have just left the character alone after The Gift or tell a really good story about her, none of this crap.

If I thought her ascending to a higher dimensions (like the end she got in the Gift) or the hypothetical joining with the Prophets would be 'morbid', I'd also have to find the Sisko ending 'morbid'. And the Wesley ending. And the Commander Decker ending (TMP). They all ascended to a higher dimension after all. I don't see any morbidity in that in itself.

And honestly, what other alternative would there have been at the point of the series finale? She was established to live for nine years only. So, being about 1 year old when she starts the arc she would have been at least 8 at the end of the series (whether that be VOY or DS9) so all she can really look forward to at that point is perhaps a year of life, in which she'll experience the onset of morologium and then death. Unless you go for a 'and Q/ the EMH waved his magic wand and she lived for another 130 years' solution, which I also find a bit disrespectful to the original premise. I mean, I agree that they never should have come up with the 9-year-lifespan in the first place, but given that it was there it feels cheap to simply negate that at the end for a "happy ending" (though I'll agree that making her ascend to a higher dimension is also an escape of sorts, of course).

Then, the reason I brought up Fury was because the episode -and hence the idea that higher dimensions drove her to despair- does exist, whether you (or I) like it or not - and I thought that in combination with the Prophets this at least could have been morphed into a somewhat humorous trope ('The Prophets May Perhaps Be Gods, But They Sure Make For Really Lousy Roommates!'). I loathe Fury, but that does not mean I will treat it like a taboo subject or tiptoe around it. This isn't some religion after all, just a show for entertainment. Nothing more.

 

[Ghel]

Well, those who read the stories might want a good life for the characters in their fictional world.

If Ian Fleming had made James Bond a hopeless alcoholic or someone who ended up in a nuthouse after a couple of books, they would have stop buying and reading his books, at least the books about James Bond.

Limits are about to be broken up.
I had no problem in breaking the limits for Kes which were created by the previous writers. No doubts in doing it either.

Ok, am I the only one who would LOVE to have read a James Bond novel in which this happens?!? Given Bond's drinking habits, this could be an amazing book.

Regarding Kes, I have no problem with her lifespan. If anything Kes should have been aged up by a decade at the beginning of every season--or slowly throughout each season. At 2, she is the human equivalent of 20, at 3, 30 and such. It could have been interesting to see how the crew deals with this visibly accelerated aging process as their young and innocent friend grows into middle and old age right before their eyes. For Kes, the opposite would occur. How do you deal with others who (from your perspective) have 10x your "normal" lifespan.
As a consequence, perhaps Kes should have been a ridiculously fast learner, but also incredibly impatient since to her, the Voyager crew would presumably be wasting copious amounts of time she doesn't have. It would be interesting to have played more with these types of concepts using Kes as a character.

 

[Summer Solstice]

Ok, am I the only one who would LOVE to have read a James Bond novel in which this happens?!? Given Bond's drinking habits, this could be an amazing book.

Regarding Kes, I have no problem with her lifespan. If anything Kes should have been aged up by a decade at the beginning of every season--or slowly throughout each season. At 2, she is the human equivalent of 20, at 3, 30 and such. It could have been interesting to see how the crew deals with this visibly accelerated aging process as their young and innocent friend grows into middle and old age right before their eyes. For Kes, the opposite would occur. How do you deal with others who (from your perspective) have 10x your "normal" lifespan.
As a consequence, perhaps Kes should have been a ridiculously fast learner, but also incredibly impatient since to her, the Voyager crew would presumably be wasting copious amounts of time she doesn't have. It would be interesting to have played more with these types of concepts using Kes as a character.

Yes they totally should have made Kes look a decade older each season. I think Kes was a ridiculously fast learner - I think the Doctor commented fairly early on that she was close to completing the medical school syllabus.

 

[unimatrix7]

Yes they totally should have made Kes look a decade older each season. I think Kes was a ridiculously fast learner - I think the Doctor commented fairly early on that she was close to completing the medical school syllabus.

It would’ve been amazing and according to a book - A Vision of the Future: Star Trek Voyager by…someone named Poe - this was the plan when the character was conceived. She lives an entire lifetime in the space of the series. The opportunities for profound and original Trekkian storytelling were enormous.

but, that’s not what happened.

 

[Summer Solstice]

It would’ve been amazing and according to a book - A Vision of the Future: Star Trek Voyager by…someone named Poe - this was the plan when the character was conceived. She lives an entire lifetime in the space of the series. The opportunities for profound and original Trekkian storytelling were enormous.

but, that’s not what happened.

That's so cool. I guess they probably planned that Kes would die from old age in orbit of Earth at the end of the show. After Kes left, they could have had some time-jumps, like 5 years between seasons 4 and 5 so eg Naomi would look the age really she was.

 

[plynch]

Those all are cool ideas. Yes, Kes aging would have opened up lots of story potentials. They might have handled them as cringe-y Data-explores-the-human-condition moments though. "Well, Kes, as we age we find that . . ." [insert "the more you know" PSA teachable moment here]

 

[Oddish]

It would’ve been amazing and according to a book - A Vision of the Future: Star Trek Voyager by…someone named Poe - this was the plan when the character was conceived. She lives an entire lifetime in the space of the series. The opportunities for profound and original Trekkian storytelling were enormous.

but, that’s not what happened.

It was antithetical to the direction they decided to take the series as a whole, I guess. They couldn't even handle rationing out 38 torpedoes or sticking a hollow pip on Harry's collar, you think they could have handled doing justice to life itself, in all its terrible beauty?

 

[unimatrix7]

It was antithetical to the direction they decided to take the series as a whole, I guess. They couldn't even handle rationing out 38 torpedoes or sticking a hollow pip on Harry's collar, you think they could have handled doing justice to life itself, in all its terrible beauty?

Jeri Taylor could’ve. She wrote bad sci fi but amazing human-level stories. And if I’m not mistaken she was mapping out a season-long Year of Hell storyline that was nixed by Bernal et al. So she at least had the appetite for long form storytelling.

 

[Orphalesion]

But of course it is gospel, at least among die-hard Kes fans. And do you know why? Because it is!

As a matter of fact, I saved the character from a total humiliation which has pleased many fans of Kes and the story Coming Home must be revealed as The Best Voyager Episode Never Made.

No. It is not. And I'm not gonna accept it just because you use exclamation marks or put it in bold.
To me, a Kes fan (and don't even try the "only true fans" line, no), it is not gospel and never will be, and it would have been a pretty bad episode in my eyes, and in its way no any better than Fury.

Plus it is not a real episode, and never will be. That's just the facts. My "Season 5" of X-Men Evolution I wrote as a teenager will never be real episodes either (and thank god that, by this state in my life I'd be very embarrassed if somebody dug that out and released it, thankfully its long dead in the depths of the German internet)

I also suspect the kind of stories we enjoy and what we want out of a story is very different.
I'm glad for you that you enjoy your fanfic and that you likely had fun writing it. It's not the type of story I enjoy.
I'm one of those people who feels very bound by the "reality" of the worlds and characters I create, after a while they develop their own life and I sometimes feel I'm just chronicling it, and sometimes that leads to stuff I don't want, but that still makes the most sense for the world and characters. So I don't like stories were the author starts with a set, very specific outcome and then forces the world and characters to conform to that (the main reason I didn't like Game of Thrones after the fourth season is because the show runners did exactly that, just forcing events they found cool and liked instead of having them come organically out of the story and characters)
You, form what I've seen, have less problems with putting what you want into what you write. It's just a different way of doing things.
I think my way is better, you probably prefer yours.

I agree that everyone can have their head-canon and I must once again apologize for my comments in that previous post. it just came out totally wrong.

Agreed let's just each try to respect the other's opinion.

" In fact, the "kes joins the Prophets of Bajor" was the only suggesting I did find at least somewhat acceptable.

Why thank you. I just arrive at endings like that for Kes because, as per my method described above, for me they are the logical endings for her character and the world she lives in.
My standard ending for Voyager Kes, if you remember it, is that after transcending mortality in The Gift, she returns to Ocampa, uses her newfound powers to restore its ecology and then becomes a teacher to her people (and possibly a very sparkly Planetary Spirit/Guardian.
I reached that conclusion because of several things:
1) Kes is compassionate, she would want to help others were she can. She would want to help any young Ocampa who were like her once, just as Voyager has helped her.
2) Kes is passionate about her powers and mastering them.
3) She spend a lot of her time on Voyager as a student, so it's natural that she should become a teacher.
And in my eyes it is a happy ending for Kes because she would find joy and self-fulfilment in helping her people; the students becomes the teacher, and the one who was once in need of help is now the helper.
To me that is an optimistic, logical and happy ending.

We might disagree on that, but that's okay. Just don't expect me to hold your fanfic or headcanon, and I won't expect you to hold to mine either.

But how can personal problems for someone be solved without some sort of happy ending?

Here is once again the fact that what you see as an happy ending is not the same as what other people see as an happy ending.
The only thing you accept is your idea where Q just solves her problem and she randomly prances around the Alpha Quadrant, just so that she is there because you want her to be.
Other people have different methods and standards by which they judge a positive and satisfying ending.

 

[Tracy Trek]

Still, I wish that neelix and his new-found family could have ended up at a better place. By the way, how far is that asteroid located from Federation space?

I'm not sure how far it was from the farthest reaches of Federation space, but in the episode where the Ferengi hi-jacked Barclay's hologram in order to steal Seven's nano-probes in season 7, it was about 30,000 light years to Earth. I think the title of the episode is Inside Man.

Kes's voice doesn't seem that well suited to heavy metal... I could more see her doing a duet with Vic Fontaine.

When Voyager first came out I recall reading in a magazine that someone said her voice reminded them of warm honey.

If anything Kes should have been aged up by a decade at the beginning of every season--or slowly throughout each season. At 2, she is the human equivalent of 20, at 3, 30 and such. It could have been interesting to see how the crew deals with this visibly accelerated aging process as their young and innocent friend grows into middle and old age right before their eyes.

If we go by how her reverse aging was in the episode Before And After, she looks pretty much the same as she looks in season 3 with long hair until she is about 8 and 1/2. Then she looks about 70 on her ninth birthday and looks 90 a few weeks later. I'm basing this on how she looked when the picture is taken of her holding baby Andrew. And he's not a full grown human/Ocampan hybrid when she celebrates her ninth birthday.

My standard ending for Voyager Kes, if you remember it, is that after transcending mortality in The Gift, she returns to Ocampa, uses her newfound powers to restore its ecology and then becomes a teacher to her people (and possibly a very sparkly Planetary Spirit/Guardian.

There's a short story in one of the Strange New Worlds anthology series that is more or less this scenario.

 

[dupersuper]

Well, Picard told him he was right not to try. Obviously, that trumps all...

I like to think when he started snapping every one up their presents the dead kid got better and he just left her alive when he lost her powers.

 

[Orphalesion]

There's a short story in one of the Strange New Worlds anthology series that is more or less this scenario.

I don't generally read Star Trek books.
But that doesn't surprise me, as I said I think it's the most logical outcome considering Kes' character and personality, so it makes sense multiple people thought of it.