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DC Movies - To Infinity and Beyond

I'd say that Smallville is the exception to that. It was conceived to be an reinvention of the character for audiences that would never watch a superhero show (since it debuted before superheroes became respectable to the mainstream). For the first seven seasons, even as it eventually worked in more comics elements, Smallville was a show about Clark Kent trying his hardest not to be Superman, to resist his destiny to become a hero. And then the new showrunners in season 8 finally pulled him out of that rut and let him choose to pursue that destiny, but the show still seemed embarrassed by the idea of Superman and avoided letting Clark adopt the persona even after it had become a full-on Superman show in every other respect.

For that matter, I'm not sure it applies to Lois & Clark season 1 either. As the title indicates, that season focused far more on Clark and generally downplayed Superman, to the extent that sometimes the cape only showed up for one brief scene in an entire episode. And it poked fun at the tropes of the character, though in a gentle way. It was definitely an attempt to make Superman "work" for a modern audience, though it drew heavily on how John Byrne had reinvented him in the post-Crisis comics.
To the extent your argument is that these are Clark Kent stories more than Superman stories, to my mind there's no distinction. I'm 100 percent on board with, "Superman is what I can do. Clark is who I am." So focusing on Clark in no way deligitimizes a Superman story to me. Quite the contrary.

As for making Superman work for a modern audience, that's just smart storytelling, but I don't think any of the TV series have violated the character's essence in that pursuit.
 
One thing I've never figured out is why people complain about Snyder having Superman kill Zod but nobody complains about Donner (as those were his scenes in Superman II) having him kill Zod, Non and Ursa and leave Lex Luthor to freeze to death?

Oh and then he tops it off by having the noble and heroic Superman beat the shit out of a guy who has no way of fighting back. (Something that would have been even worse in Donner's original plan for the movies where his first scenes wouldn't have happened due to time being turned back.)

Was Donner going to continue to use that scene when time was turned back? I'm trying to remember if it was in the Donner Cut which I haven't watched in fifteen years, but if it had been in there it wouldn't have made any sense at all.
 
First look at Michael Keatons batsuit in "The Flash"

https://twitter.com/EpicFilmGuys/status/1514676806565117958?cxt=HHwWjICyzfmhm4UqAAAA

kcIIWUj.jpg
 
To the extent your argument is that these are Clark Kent stories more than Superman stories, to my mind there's no distinction. I'm 100 percent on board with, "Superman is what I can do. Clark is who I am." So focusing on Clark in no way deligitimizes a Superman story to me. Quite the contrary.

I'm not talking about legitimacy, I'm responding to your statement about whether the stories treated Superman as a problem, which I took to mean whether their creators saw the narrative concept of a pure, noble superhero as a problem that needed to be solved to make the story work for a contemporary audience, rather than something to be taken at face value and presented uncritically. The creators of Lois & Clark and Smallville both absolutely saw Superman and his associated tropes as a problem to be worked around and avoided as much as possible. When Deborah Joy Levine developed L&C, her initial idea was never to show Superman at all, just to do a workplace comedy/drama about Lois & Clark, with Superman as a background element that was discussed but never seen. They abandoned that, of course, but as I said, season 1 tried to downplay the superhero side as much as possible.

In both cases, the creators definitely saw Superman as a problem, and their solution (in the original conceptions of both series, regardless of how they changed in later seasons) was to focus as much as possible on Clark Kent instead of Superman. Alfred Gough and Miles Millar even took Smallville to the point that Levine was unable to with L&C, effectively eliminating the superhero element and turning Clark Kent's story into a paranormal teen drama.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think you can reduce something's success or failure to a single causal factor -- "The things that did this failed and the ones that didn't succeeded." Winning over an audience, or telling a good story (not necessarily the same thing), involves a lot more variables than that. Personally, I never much liked Smallville's avoidance of Superman, especially as it just dragged on year after year, but the show had enough other aspects that made it work for the audience, and that made it mostly work for me in the first few seasons and again in seasons 8-9. And I wasn't crazy about L&C's first-season avoidance of Superman either, but it was still a fun and engaging show in other ways. And when it did embrace Superman more in subsequent seasons, that didn't translate to a better show in and of itself, because it wasn't the only factor. Season 2 was good, but seasons 3 & 4 were from showrunners who didn't respect the concept and approached it as camp, so those seasons just got dumber and dumber.

So the issue with the movies is not that they treat Superman as a problem to be solved. Addressing problematical concepts can be the root of a lot of excellent storytelling. The issue is that they don't come up with effective solutions, or that they have other weaknesses independent of that single question.


Was Donner going to continue to use that scene when time was turned back? I'm trying to remember if it was in the Donner Cut which I haven't watched in fifteen years, but if it had been in there it wouldn't have made any sense at all.

It is in the Donner Cut, and that's my biggest problem with the Donner Cut. The decision to end the first film with the time reversal was made before the second film was shot, so if Donner had completed S2, it would have had a different ending. So putting that sequence at the end of the Donner Cut is betraying its intention to approximate what Donner's version of the film would have been.
 
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It is in the Donner Cut, and that's my biggest problem with the Donner Cut. The decision to end the first film with the time reversal was made before the second film was shot, so if Donner had completed S2, it would have had a different ending. So putting that sequence at the end of the Donner Cut is betraying its intention to approximate what Donner's version of the film would have been.

Well, it was added to the first movie before the second was completed, but much had been shot. They only moved it forward because the Salkinds wanted to recap their ballooning budget. In Donner's original two film plan it would never have been used in 1.
 
I'm not talking about legitimacy, I'm responding to your statement about whether the stories treated Superman as a problem, which I took to mean whether their creators saw the narrative concept of a pure, noble superhero as a problem that needed to be solved to make the story work for a contemporary audience, rather than something to be taken at face value and presented uncritically. The creators of Lois & Clark and Smallville both absolutely saw Superman and his associated tropes as a problem to be worked around and avoided as much as possible. When Deborah Joy Levine developed L&C, her initial idea was never to show Superman at all, just to do a workplace comedy/drama about Lois & Clark, with Superman as a background element that was discussed but never seen. They abandoned that, of course, but as I said, season 1 tried to downplay the superhero side as much as possible.

In both cases, the creators definitely saw Superman as a problem, and their solution (in the original conceptions of both series, regardless of how they changed in later seasons) was to focus as much as possible on Clark Kent instead of Superman. Alfred Gough and Miles Millar even took Smallville to the point that Levine was unable to with L&C, effectively eliminating the superhero element and turning Clark Kent's story into a paranormal teen drama.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think you can reduce something's success or failure to a single causal factor -- "The things that did this failed and the ones that didn't succeeded." Winning over an audience, or telling a good story (not necessarily the same thing), involves a lot more variables than that. Personally, I never much liked Smallville's avoidance of Superman, especially as it just dragged on year after year, but the show had enough other aspects that made it work for the audience, and that made it mostly work for me in the first few seasons and again in seasons 8-9. And I wasn't crazy about L&C's first-season avoidance of Superman either, but it was still a fun and engaging show in other ways. And when it did embrace Superman more in subsequent seasons, that didn't translate to a better show in and of itself, because it wasn't the only factor. Season 2 was good, but seasons 3 & 4 were from showrunners who didn't respect the concept and approached it as camp, so those seasons just got dumber and dumber.

So the issue with the movies is not that they treat Superman as a problem to be solved. Addressing problematical concepts can be the root of a lot of excellent storytelling. The issue is that they don't come up with effective solutions, or that they have other weaknesses independent of that single question.
You’re treating Superman and Clark as separate entities. My point is that in my mind, they’re one and the same. Smallville is a Superman story from its first episode and throughout all ten seasons, because it’s a Clark Kent story.

I recognize that for a lot of people (not meaning you), the costumed superhero persona is all that matters, so something like Smallville is nothing but a long frustrating prologue to the “real” story, which only begins when Clark puts on blue long johns. But that’s not a view I share.

I suppose there’s also a case to be made that the term “Superman” is limited to Clark’s public superhero persona, but that’s really semantics as far as I’m concerned, for purposes of the present discussion. My point in saying the TV series “let Superman be Superman” (which I could as easily have phrased as “let Clark be Clark”) was that they didn’t feel the need to make the character into something he isn’t in order to “fix” the perceived problem he represents. On the contrary, I think placing him in these different contexts (romantic comedy, teen soap) is just smart creative thinking.

(And I wrote most of this before you added a couple of paragraphs, starting with “I guess what I’m saying,” and those are fair points. It’s certainly possible to make a disappointing Superman movie without approaching the character as a problem. All I’m saying is it’s not a good place to start, because he isn’t a problem, and the TV series succeed because they know that. And to the extent your comments implicitly embrace the idea that Superman is a “problematical concept,” I don’t agree.)
 
Well, it was added to the first movie before the second was completed, but much had been shot. They only moved it forward because the Salkinds wanted to recap their ballooning budget. In Donner's original two film plan it would never have been used in 1.

All right, before the second was completed, but that's exactly the point -- that if the Donner version of the film had been completed, if Donner had not been replaced by Richard Lester, then Superman II would not have ended with the time reversal. So it was inappropriate to put it at the end of the Donner Cut.


You’re treating Superman and Clark as separate entities. My point is that in my mind, they’re one and the same.

Beside the point. It's not about how you or I would treat the characters, because this conversation is not about us. You asserted that "Notably, they just let Superman be Superman, instead of approaching him as a problem that has to be solved." The topic under discussion is how creators like Deborah Joy Levine, Alfred Gough, and Miles Millar saw Superman, not how you or I see them. We need to set our personal opinions aside if we want to discuss the views and choices of other people.


My point in saying the TV series “let Superman be Superman” (which I could as easily have phrased as “let Clark be Clark”) was that they didn’t feel the need to make the character into something he isn’t in order to “fix” the perceived problem he represents. On the contrary, I think placing him in these different contexts (romantic comedy, teen soap) is just smart creative thinking.

(And I wrote most of this before you added a couple of paragraphs, starting with “I guess what I’m saying,” and those are fair points. It’s certainly possible to make a disappointing Superman movie without approaching the character as a problem. All I’m saying is it’s not a good place to start, because he isn’t a problem, and the TV series succeed because they know that. And to the extent your comments implicitly embrace the idea that Superman is a “problematical concept,” I don’t agree.)

I'd draw a distinction here that I don't think you're making, between a problem and its solution. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with approaching a character as a problem to be solved. Most stories are fundamentally about solving problems, or at least exploring them. I'd argue that a character who isn't a problem to be solved is uninteresting. The question is whether the solution you come up with is engaging and effective.

In this case, I think Levine and Gough/Millar did see Superman as a problem, but their solution was not to change the character, merely to recontextualize him, to focus on the aspects relatable to a general audience and ease into the more comic-booky aspects. What you're objecting to in the movies, I think, is not that they treated Superman as a problem, but that they felt the solution required changing him.
 
I don’t agree they saw Superman as a problem, because they didn’t see Clark as a problem, and Clark = Superman.

But the rest of your concluding paragraph is a fair paraphrase of what I’m getting at.
 
I don’t agree they saw Superman as a problem, because they didn’t see Clark as a problem, and Clark = Superman.

Again, there's nothing wrong with seeing a character as a problem. Problems are interesting. Problems are what drive stories. You're saying "problem" as if it were an exclusively negative thing, but a problem is a challenge, and creative people thrive on tackling challenges.

Yes, Clark Kent is Superman, and that is why those creators saw it as a problem to tell a story about him. How do you address the aspect of Clark Kent that makes him Superman? How do you make that side of Clark Kent work for an audience that wouldn't necessarily be ready to take a superhero at face value? How do you convince them to buy into the idea that Clark Kent adopts the persona of Superman? I never said the two weren't one and the same. I said that the creators of those shows saw that very dual identity as the basis of the problem.
 
Guys they're gonna restore the Snyderverse:lol:

Probably.

Maybe.

...likely not. But another new direction is coming.
That sounds OK to me, I don't think many would argue that the DCEU* side could use some direction and to also keep allowing for individual independent projects to diverge and do their own thing sounds promising.

* or whatever the proper letters are for their shared "cinematic universe"
 
One thing I've never figured out is why people complain about Snyder having Superman kill Zod but nobody complains about Donner (as those were his scenes in Superman II) having him kill Zod, Non and Ursa and leave Lex Luthor to freeze to death?

That's due to a gross, self-deceiving notion and ignorance about Superman--the comic character's history. Superman was launched as a Depression-era crusader who was depicted as judge, jury and yes, on occasion--executioner of criminals (panels illustrating that have been posted in this forum), which ft a supported view of crime in that period of American history. He was not the infantile bastardization from the height of the Weisinger period, where Superman had been reduced to the barrel-bellied uncle playing ball in the park.

Superman killed, so for Donner's Superman to kill Zod and Non was no shock or aberration to those who actually knew the character's history. Superman did not start or become popular with a "no kill" policy because he did not have one. In Man of Steel, Superman was faced with a world-killer who would not stop, so he was left with one solution--and that was not going to be lifting Zod by the back of his collar and dropping him off in a prison while winking to the camera. That would have been nonsensical. The film portrayed a new hero still trying to manage his way among humans, but caring enough and mature enough to know the protection of people is not going to come through attempting talk-downs, negotiations or the avoidance of necessary violence with threats who do not care about negotiations or threats.

Man of Steel--unlike nearly every other filmed Superman production to date--laid out a sharp, realistic view of what Superman would have to deal / come to terms with about his role as a protector--and it was not going to end with that aforementioned grin and winking.


For some odd reason it's VERY VERY hard to write and visualize Superman in the movies

It is not hard at all. The DCEU presented a solid, fascinating Superman with believable growth from one film to the next. The problem rests with the idiots at WB who bought into the notion that Superman "must" be some billion-dollar film, instead of focusing on the audience's interests, and for Superman, its no apeing another film franchise and making 79 sequels.

Superman on TV has turned into a typical CW young adult drama meets a soap opera this season, and the choice was deliberate, as the showrunners are clearly more interested in the "novel" concept of a domesticated Clark--rather than the heavier exploration / exploits of his alter-ego, which demands a far different kind of story and approach to production.
 
Superman on TV has turned into a typical CW young adult drama meets a soap opera this season, and the choice was deliberate, as the showrunners are clearly more interested in the "novel" concept of a domesticated Clark--rather than the heavier exploration / exploits of his alter-ego, which demands a far different kind of story and approach to production.
Yeah, sadly after a start as a much higher level show, S&L has devolved into being just another CW show. Maybe they just don't have enough ratings to justify the budget or maybe the ratings are low because the budget is already too low.
 
So apparently something's happened with Barry Keoghan, but reading into it...I don't think it's anything bad. He got drunk, was on a balcony and the cops took him into a drunk tank so he'd be okay and he cooperated with them.
 
So apparently something's happened with Barry Keoghan, but reading into it...I don't think it's anything bad. He got drunk, was on a balcony and the cops took him into a drunk tank so he'd be okay and he cooperated with them.

Had to google who that was......
 
So apparently something's happened with Barry Keoghan, but reading into it...I don't think it's anything bad. He got drunk, was on a balcony and the cops took him into a drunk tank so he'd be okay and he cooperated with them.
Yeah, some clickbait-y headlines lurred me into reading it, but it appears rather harmless.
 
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