Opinions On "THE RECKONING"...

[Farscape One]

I am sure by now everyone knows Sisko is my favorite captain. But I have to say... this episode is the one time I am vehemently against Sisko.

I find it not just abhorrant that such an established family man would be willing to sacrifice his own son, but he didn't even entertain the idea of Dax's solution, which Winn ended up doing at the end.

While I understand that the Prophets did stop the Dominion fleet from coming through and crushing the Alpha Quadrant, and it was a big favor and doing a favor in return is warranted and acceptable, it also sort of puts the Federation at their beck and call. Almost a blackmail situation. My wife said pretty much the same thing, and she is very religious.

Personally, I feel this episode actually hurts Ben's character in a big way.

I also think it was a copout and a missed opportunity for Jake to be at least a bit mad at him for being fine with it. I don't expect a rift to happen between them, but I would think such a thing could at least make him distant from his father for a few episodes.

I understand they patterned the story after Abraham in the Bible, but all that does is just reinforce my feelings on why religion is, on the whole, one of the worst creations humans ever made.

Had "PROFIT AND LACE" been produced for another season, I would easily call "THE RECKONING" the worst episode of season 6.

Thoughts? Temba, his arms open.

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

I am sure by now everyone knows Sisko is my favorite captain. But I have to say... this episode is the one time I am vehemently against Sisko.

I find it not just abhorrant that such an established family man would be willing to sacrifice his own son, but he didn't even entertain the idea of Dax's solution, which Winn ended up doing at the end.

While I understand that the Prophets did stop the Dominion fleet from coming through and crushing the Alpha Quadrant, and it was a big favor and doing a favor in return is warranted and acceptable, it also sort of puts the Federation at their beck and call. Almost a blackmail situation. My wife said pretty much the same thing, and she is very religious.

Personally, I feel this episode actually hurts Ben's character in a big way.

I also think it was a copout and a missed opportunity for Jake to be at least a bit mad at him for being fine with it. I don't expect a rift to happen between them, but I would think such a thing could at least make him distant from his father for a few episodes.

I understand they patterned the story after Abraham in the Bible, but all that does is just reinforce my feelings on why religion is, on the whole, one of the worst creations humans ever made.

Had "PROFIT AND LACE" been produced for another season, I would easily call "THE RECKONING" the worst episode of season 6.

Thoughts? Temba, his arms open.

Sisko said he believed the wormhole aliens would protect Jake, that they wouldn't allow him to die. He didn't think he was sacrificing Jake. Afterwards that was firmly understood between him & Jake, so no resentment needed. (I just watched this episode the other day.)

It's a super-corny episode that looks more like Ghostbusters than Trek, and to me it's where the show started to take itself a lot less seriously, to its detriment.

The rant against religion is unnecessary, btw.

 

[Farscape One]

Sisko may have believed that, but if you look at Kira and Jake while they were possessed and in battle, I don't see how the Prophets would protect Jake. They were both bleeding from the nose and eyes, and Jake also had clear physical damage in his forehead.

The Prophet and the Pah-Wraith were in it to win it, no matter the physical cost to their hosts. Whoever lost, it looks like death for the host was almost certain.

The episode is written so that no resentment was going to happen between Jake and his dad... I just think that was a missed opportunity for Jake's character, particularly since earlier in the same episode he tells Ben that the Emissary stuff already almost killed him twice within a year.

Regarding my opinion on religion, I wasn't ranting... it was an opinion. The episode directly ties into the question of how far someone will go for a religious belief, up to and including essentially murdering your child. And letting that happen would have been murder, mostly because Sisko had the means to stop it before it even started.

I meant no offense, but historically, you can't tell me religion has not been used as an excuse to commit a vast amount of atrocities. Which still go on today in some parts of the world.

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

I meant no offense

religion is, on the whole, one of the worst creations humans ever made.

 

[DonIago]

I think Kira said it best: If you don't understand faith then nobody can explain it to you, and if you do understand faith then no explanation is necessary.

I like that the episode ends with a 'villain' doing what Our Heroes didn't believe needed to be done. Who knows how things might have turned out if Winn hadn't intervened. I also like that this episode goes a long way in terms of establishing that, in the end, Winn either doesn't really trust the Prophets, or is so consumed by her own issues that she'd put them before the Prophets' wishes. Foreshadowing what is to come.

 

[Farscape One]

Precisely. It is my opinion. One of the big reasons for that opinion is how it has been used to justify atrocities across most of our recorded history.


Agreed that it's the only time I actually was completely with Winn in her actions.

I have always liked that line from Kira, which was from "ACCESSION", if I remember right.

To clarify my position, I don't have any issues with faith, though I personally have none. But I have seen that it can do good. A number of people in my life have it, and many of them have a certain sense of peace that I have never experienced and likely never will. It's religion that I feel is the problem. Faith and religion are very, very different things

 

[DonIago]

FWIW, you might want to specify "organized religion" to further avoid confusion, assuming that's your intent.

 

[Farscape One]

From what I understand, the terms religion and organized religion have the same meaning.

 

[Tosk]

Shitting on religion is just as much a part of religious freedom as belonging to one is.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

@Farscape One

Agree with you on everything about this episode except how you think it reflects the reality if religion.

If this was inspired by Abraham, then I am baffled. Abraham famously argued to reverse and minimize divine judgements and interventions. The writers of this episode make the same assumption that you have: religion makes people surrender their agency. Sisko fails to question the Prophets' intentions and actions, including their effects on his own family. Only some religions promote such outright subservience and fatalism.

This episode probably took this approach because the writers needed to justify the oversized spiritual battle that they wanted to film, not because they were being especially insightful about religion. Sisko shook his fist at the heavens in Sacrifice of Angels, but here seems to be resigned to being a pawn. The episode seems to avoid the notion that Sisko might have a falling out with the Prophets. Consequently, he lost his authority. At least when he confronts Dukat and Winn in the finale, he acted with his own agency.

Moreover, Winn was both right in her actions while also acting religiously herself. The fact that she made choices in her self interest does negate that she acted in the tradition of serving her "congregation."

This episode confuses how the Prophets play the role of gods with the Neo-Platonic concept of a God. They aren't all powerful. They aren't everywhere. They aren't all knowing. Before and after this episode they were, more or less, local. This episode is an exception because it insists that they are universal and perfect.

 

[Trekker09]

Hadn’t thought about this before, but it does seem like Jake should have objected, and it does seem like a violation of Sisko’s character to put his son at risk. There’s the parallel to Abraham, also Moses smashing the tablet, and the line ”eat drink and be merry” etc from Isaiah – so the writers were playing with biblical imagery, combined with an Indiana Jones / Star Wars vibe in the battle --plus the red vs blue lights suggests a political dimension. Hard to take it too seriously.
The fact that the prophets can be destroyed by chroniton particles reminds us that the wormhole aliens are a species, life forms subject to physical laws-- not to be equated with the Judeo-Christian creator of the universe but more like local deities. The possession of bodies, along with the Prophets demanding a “payback” after stopping the Dominion ships, doesn’t resonate with the biblical concept of God.
Also agree about the series contrasting faith and organized religion – faith is more in the context of deep trust in one another, like Odo saying he has faith in Kira.

 

[dupersuper]

The rant against religion is unnecessary, btw.

Nah, the world needs as many of those as we can get.

 

[somebuddyX]

I liked it and think Sisko was fine and enjoyed the ending scene with the two of them. I like the juxtaposition of the outsider Sisko having more faith in the Gods than the Space Pope. Admittedly these Gods built a wormhole and do all kinds of temporal shenanigans and had his back when they evaporated several thousand enemy ships, so ...
The only thing I remember not liking was the half-assed Prophet scene in the beginning when they find the thing and everyone's walking back and forth. I remember that being really shit.

 

[suarezguy]

I like that the episode ends with a 'villain' doing what Our Heroes didn't believe needed to be done.

I kind of hated that. Our main cast characters have to survive, but the heroes also have to be faithful believers because faith is good, so have the villain do the saving and also give her no credit or appreciation for doing so.

Although I do think Sisko generally was portrayed as pretty subservient/deferential to the Prophets, his marrying aside, the last three years of the show with and after "Rapture" to where him joining them at the end seemed pretty in-character at least made sense.

 

[Farscape One]

You are right that Sisko leaned more toward the subservient side with the Prophets... in fact, it's a major sticking point with my wife regarding his character, who loves everything about him except the Emissary component. (Which is ironic, because she herself is very religious while I am completely not that way.)

And while him having faith in the Prophets is in character, him willing to sacrifice his son is certainly not. Particularly when he said he would not risk the lives of the people on the station and had them all evacuate. Granted, he made that order before Jake was shown to be possessed, but if he were fully consistent, as soon as he saw his son possessed by the Pah-Wraith, he should have used the field Dax was pleading with him to use. To me, that totally hurt Ben's character because one of the most core concepts of him was being a good father. Hell, it was a cornetstone of the entire series, and personally, perhaps the most important one, because it's probably the one single attribute that Sisko alone has that none of the other franchise captains have.

(I am noy counting Kirk's son David, because he had no hand in raising him, despite the fact it was Carol who asked him to stay out.)

 

[DonIago]

I'm not saying I -support- Ben's decision here, or that it's necessarily in-character, or that it's good or sympathetic writing, but if his story arc is supposed to revolve around him gradually becoming more of the religious figure he's supposed to be, then maybe this is supposed to show that he's 'leveled up' to the point where he is willing to put his faith in the Prophets to protect his son, versus protecting his son from the Prophets.

 

[at Quark's]

On a surface level a really dumb episode. The Pah-Wraiths and the Prophets need to duke it out, and they know no better way to go about it than entering Power Ranger mode. Even nicely Colour Coded for Our Convenience.

That said, there are some deeper themes running through it (e.g Sisko's trust in the Prophets), as noted in previous posts. Perhaps I should rewatch it after all.

 

[Trekker09]

@Farscape One
If this was inspired by Abraham, then I am baffled. Abraham famously argued to reverse and minimize divine judgements and interventions. ....
This episode is an exception because it insists that the Prophets are universal and perfect.

Not sure why the reference to Abraham would be baffling - it's a clear parallel to the near-sacrifice of Isaac. Abraham did debate with God earlier about sparing Sodom. Later with Isaac he trusted that God would provide the sacrificial animal, just as Sisko trusts that his son will be safe. I agree that the writers wanted to show Sisko passing this test of faith, but it does undermine the close father-son relationship that is central to his character and the series as a whole.

About the episode insisting the Prophets are "universal and perfect" - don't see how you could conclude that.

I'm not religious or a churchgoer, though I've always had an interest in the bible.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Abraham did debate with God earlier about sparing Sodom. Later with Isaac he trusted that God would provide the sacrificial animal, just as Sisko trusts that his son will be safe.

This is a particularly Christian reading of the "binding of Isaac," a test of the purity of Abraham's faith. In the Talmud, Abraham does attempt to avoid the sacrifice, and the emphasis is on mercy, not belief. There are interpretations that do come much later, but not as part of the original body of religious works.

In previous episodes, the Prophets do clearly lack full knowledge of what is happening in the universe. They need to have an--ahem--Emissary convey that knowledge to them. Their ability to see the future has always been limit and localized.

 

[Captrek]

In previous episodes, the Prophets do clearly lack full knowledge of what is happening in the universe. They need to have an--ahem--Emissary convey that knowledge to them. Their ability to see the future has always been limit and localized.

They exist outside of time and don’t change. Whatever they knew after encountering Sisko, they also knew before. They’re just pretending not to understand when talking to him that first time.