Spoilers Time travel issues S2

[Tuskin38]

But that doesn't answer my point about the butterfly effect.

If there was a timeline when the original Bell was Bell, and Sisko had to take over later and copy everything he did, the timeline would still have changed. Even if Sisko copied Bell's actions and words down to the letter, that alone would have caused a change. It didn't.

I'm not saying the timeline didn't change, only it didn't change enough to be notable. They left a very small fingerprint. None of the butterflies were enough to be notable.

What about Trials and Tribulations? None of those characters were in the TOS episode, but now they are. As far as we can tell nothing changed in the 24th Century.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'm not saying the timeline didn't change, only it didn't change enough to be notable.

But it WOULD have been notable.

It may have only been a slight change in 2024, but that would have rippled down through the centuries and caused a massive difference in the 24th century.

 

[Tuskin38]

But it WOULD have been notable.

It may have only been a slight change in 2024, but that would have rippled down through the centuries and caused a massive difference in the 24th century.

Evidently not. Since the timeline they returned to was identical minus Sisko's photo instead of Bell's.

 

[Farscape One]

I think the proof of Sisko changing it is since he knew about the Bell riots, he likely knew his face. If he was always destined to do those events, then when he first studied the Bell Riots, he would have remarked at how much Bell looked like him.

Plus, at the end when he sees his picture, he hates the idea of 'having to explain this to Starfleet'.

 

[Tuskin38]

I think the proof of Sisko changing it is since he knew about the Bell riots, he likely knew his face. If he was always destined to do those events, then when he first studied the Bell Riots, he would have remarked at how much Bell looked like him.

Though, counterpoint. he had to look at Bell's ID card to know it was him.
Though maybe that was just for confirmation. He may not have seen his face in a while.

 

[Farscape One]

I think it was more confirmation, because they just got out of that fight with B.C. and the ghosts.

 

[F. King Daniel]

And I just thought of another thing:

If the 2024 in PIC is a different past...then (even if the crew prevent the point of divergence) how can it possibly lead to the same future?

Luckily we can say "a wizard did it" just like "All Good Things"

 

[Llywela]

I mean, the DS9 crew returned to the same future they left, didn't they? If the original Bell had taken part in the riots, and then been replaced by Sisko who had to copy Bell's actions, then the timeline would still have changed, due to the butterfly effect. Even the slightest change has huge ramifications. There were none.

I liked the way Agents of SHIELD handled the ramifications of time travel in its final season, and the way Deke described time travel theory -

Deke: The butterfly effect is just one aspect of the multiverse branch theory. Personally, I subscribe to the Time-Stream idea. [...] Okay. Imagine time as a stream, right? And we were sticks that were thrown into it. The water, it... it moves us... it moves around us. But it ends up in the same place. Right. Now, too many sticks thrown in and that will create what's called a dam, and... and that'll change the direction of the water forever, and that's bad. So as long as we can avoid that, we should be able to splash around a little bit and we're all good. [...] Ripples, not waves.

Under that theory, Sisko taking the place of Gabriel Bell was a ripple not a wave. History ended up in the same place and the timeline remained intact. It fits the way Star Trek seems to handle time travel a bit better than the butterfly effect theory.

 

[Miss Chicken]

I have been talking about Picard on Facebook which I should stop doing due to some of the fans there being as thick as bricks.
I ended up making up a diagram to explain the timelines in Picard and I wonder if people here can give it their perusal and see if I my diagram is correct or close to correct and how it can be improved. Excuse the roughness on the diagram, I am shit at drawing.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Sphere Builders didn't even bother with the confederate timeline?

 

[Tomalak]

I have been talking about Picard on Facebook which I should stop doing due to some of the fans there being as thick as bricks.
I ended up making up a diagram to explain the timelines in Picard and I wonder if people here can give it their perusal and see if I my diagram is correct or close to correct and how it can be improved. Excuse the roughness on the diagram, I am shit at drawing.

That's exactly as I see it.

I think what is confusing people is that although they are alternate timelines, they are functionally identical until the "3 days later" divergence event.

In Discovery season 3 the idea that timelines diverge and drift further apart was introduced. I think that applies here. 2024 is the same in both timelines (except for Guinan not having met Picard, and presumably other temporal incursions), and then they diverge to the Confederation or UFP branches, and move further apart as time goes on.

The other complication is that Q brought them to the other timeline, so they can't automatically assume they will return to their correct timeline unless he is willing and able to do so. I think this might be an issue in the second half of the season.

 

[Farscape One]

I have been talking about Picard on Facebook which I should stop doing due to some of the fans there being as thick as bricks.
I ended up making up a diagram to explain the timelines in Picard and I wonder if people here can give it their perusal and see if I my diagram is correct or close to correct and how it can be improved. Excuse the roughness on the diagram, I am shit at drawing.

Diagram looks right to me. Hell, your drawing and handwriting are far better than what I could do.

 

[Yistaan]

I have been talking about Picard on Facebook which I should stop doing due to some of the fans there being as thick as bricks.
I ended up making up a diagram to explain the timelines in Picard and I wonder if people here can give it their perusal and see if I my diagram is correct or close to correct and how it can be improved. Excuse the roughness on the diagram, I am shit at drawing.

You do know that the Picard showrunners' version of time travel doesn't just affect the Prime Timeline, but also the Mirror universe and the Kelvin universe right? Because Nero doesn't exist, he doesn't go back in time to start Kelvin timeline. Because the Defiant didn't exist, it didn't go back in time to cement Terran Empire control of the Mirror Universe.

That's why they shouldn't have jumped to this new version of time travel. No time travel should chain reaction affect an entire multiverse. The alternate futures' visits to the past before divergence should remain intact. Guinan should remember Picard. By not doing so, they've nullified the Mirror and Kelvin timelines, which is way, way, way beyond the scope of this season arc. The writers did not think this through.

 

[Tomalak]

You do know that the Picard showrunners' version of time travel doesn't just affect the Prime Timeline, but also the Mirror universe and the Kelvin universe right? Because Nero doesn't exist, he doesn't go back in time to start Kelvin timeline. Because the Defiant didn't exist, it didn't go back in time to cement Terran Empire control of the Mirror Universe.

That's why they shouldn't have jumped to this new version of time travel. No time travel should chain reaction affect an entire multiverse. The alternate futures' visits to the past before divergence should remain intact. Guinan should remember Picard. By not doing so, they've nullified the Mirror and Kelvin timelines, which is way, way, way beyond the scope of this season arc. The writers did not think this through.

How is this "new"?

The same can be said for any other implementation of time travel in Trek from City on the Edge of Forever, to First Contact, Yesterday's Enterprise and Past Tense.

 

[Yistaan]

How is this "new"?

The same can be said for any other implementation of time travel in Trek from City on the Edge of Forever, to First Contact, Yesterday's Enterprise and Past Tense.

Those are different. None of those episodes outright stated that time travel visit before the point of divergence were erased. City, First Contact, Yesterday's Enterprise, Past Tense--we could still assume Guinan in 1893 met with a Picard from the future, even if it has been reclassified as an alternate one.

That this erases past instances of time travel before the divergence--That is new. Not a single episode you mentioned addressed that in any way. They only showed the future changed after the point of divergence, not events beforehand.

 

[Tomalak]

Those are different. None of those episodes outright stated that time travel visit before the point of divergence were erased. City, First Contact, Yesterday's Enterprise, Past Tense--we could still assume Guinan in 1893 met with a Picard from the future, even if it has been reclassified as an alternate one.

That this erases past instances of time travel before the divergence--That is new. Not a single episode you mentioned addressed that in any way. They only showed the future changed after the point of divergence, not events beforehand.

They didn't outright state that time travel visits before the point of divergence were erased, because it didn't come up. But obviously they were.

Do you think if Sisko and Bashir had gone to LA during the events of Past Tense they could have asked Guinan how she enjoyed meeting Picard and Data?

In the First Contact Borgified Earth timeline obviously there would have been no prior visits of Starfleet time travellers because there was no Starfleet.

 

[Yistaan]

So you think if Sisko and Bashir had gone to LA during the events of Past Tense they could have asked Guinan how she enjoyed meeting Picard and Data?

Yes.

@Tomalak Also, it's just for the sanity of fans and writers in the future. By this new version of time travel, in the Yesterday's Enterprise timeline the Temporal Cold War never happened and entire SEASONS of Enterprise didn't happen or happened differently.

If someone did another Yesterday's Enterprise type episode and used these new rules of time travel set by Picard, they'd have to know every single episode of time travel that would now be nullified. Mistakes would be inevitable. In fact, a mistake already happened here. Despite the later backtracking in interviews, it's clear they intended for the punk on the bus to remember Spock and Kirk.

 

[Tomalak]

Yes.

That's kind of an interesting example come to think of it because there isn't a clearly defined point of divergence.

Is it Bell's death? Is it Sisko deciding to take Bell's role? Is it Dax convincing Bryner to let the Sanctuary residents use the net to broadcast? Is it Sisko saving Vin's life?

The Defiant is in a future in which the Federation doesn't exist, which was created during the moment of the initial transport, which suggests Sisko was not always part of the events.

Personally I think at the point they arrived in San Francisco, there would have been no Time's Arrow for Guinan, Gillian Taylor would still be at the Cetacean Institute and Rain Robinson never met Tom Paris. YMMV. But there's no way to be sure. It doesn't make the writers wrong.

 

[fireproof78]

I liked the way Agents of SHIELD handled the ramifications of time travel in its final season, and the way Deke described time travel theory -

Under that theory, Sisko taking the place of Gabriel Bell was a ripple not a wave. History ended up in the same place and the timeline remained intact. It fits the way Star Trek seems to handle time travel a bit better than the butterfly effect theory.

This is a good analogy for what I think is causing the divergence. It isn't one boulder but several pebbles that amount to altering the entire course of action. Because Picard and company came from the alternate stream that stream is still impacting their experience of past events until they adjust the pebbles and rocks.

 

[Yistaan]

It doesn't make the writers wrong.

As silly as it is to say, the writers' jobs are to keep the fans grinning (mostly, fans, especially Trek fans, will never entirely be happy someone will always be upset about something). I think more people watching this show (especially hinging as much as it does on TNG) would have been happier seeing Time's Arrow referenced than not.