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Rick Berman, Branon Braga and TOS

Why are we even entertaining that this could have been a thing? It was an incredibly stupid idea concocted by incredibly stupid people. Trying to justify a 'better' way of doing it defeats the point that it would have made no sense to have a different band on the ship every week, much less a boy band, girl band, middle-aged band, or old fogey band. Having a band on the ship has nothing to do with the premise of the show.

I mean, there can be ways to feature cameos from recording artists in a dramatic program and have it maintain its artistic integrity. Buffy the Vampire Slayer featured a nightclub in Sunnydale called the Bronze, and periodically characters would go to the Bronze and there would be a recording star playing. Sometimes very dramatic scenes would be happening out of view of the crowd while a song played (Aimee Mann's song "Pavlov's Bells" was featured this way in the episode "Sleeper"); other times, the episode would show a recording artist playing to a crowd at the Bronze while a montage of events played over the song (Michelle Branch's "Goodbye to You" was used to wonderful effect this way in the episode "Tabula Rasa").

The problem with trying to apply that idea to Star Trek: Enterprise is the fundamental premise of the show would not have allowed it, if the ship is the only United Earth ship in deep space and does not have a regular port it returns to on a consistent basis. You could probably pull something like this off if you're doing Star Trek: Voyager, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, or Star Trek: The Next Generation, because the holodeck would allow for it in the case of VOY and TNG, and it's not at all implausible that Quark's Bar might host music acts on a regular basis on DS9. But with ENT, you've got the NX-01 alone, removed from almost all support infrastructure, with no regular port to return to.

The idea could work if either all of season one were set on Earth per Berman and Braga's original idea or if the NX-01 regularly returned to Earth -- there's no reason the 602 Club couldn't host music acts. It could also work if the NX-01 regularly returned to a port on an alien world (say, Rigel VI or something).

But of course the other big issue then becomes finding artists whose music is thematically appropriate to the kinds of stories ENT is telling, instead of just inserting "Backstreet's Back" or "It's Gonna Be Me" at the end of an episode with no regard for how it fits tonally or thematically in the show.
 
Yeah, I remember Stargate Universe getting mocked for its use of embarassingly on-the-nose alternative music tracks, and they at least fit thematically. Enterprise was already infamous enough for its opening credits music, they made the right choice in not pushing it any further.

That said though, Buffy was definitely the right kind of series to be able to pull this off correctly, and I actually bought the Aimee Mann album with Pavlov's Bell on after that episode. It's pretty decent.
 
Yeah, I remember Stargate Universe getting mocked for its use of embarassingly on-the-nose alternative music tracks, and they at least fit thematically. Enterprise was already infamous enough for its opening credits music, they made the right choice in not pushing it any further.

That said though, Buffy was definitely the right kind of series to be able to pull this off correctly, and I actually bought the Aimee Mann album with Pavlov's Bell on after that episode. It's pretty decent.

Yeah, I mean -- part of the challenge there is that, well, Rick Berman had terrible taste in music. If ENT had a music supervisor like Buffy's, I could imagine them finding artists whose work was thematically and tonally appropriate and not being, y'know. Bad.
 
Yeah, I remember Stargate Universe getting mocked for its use of embarassingly on-the-nose alternative music tracks, and they at least fit thematically. Enterprise was already infamous enough for its opening credits music, they made the right choice in not pushing it any further.

That said though, Buffy was definitely the right kind of series to be able to pull this off correctly, and I actually bought the Aimee Mann album with Pavlov's Bell on after that episode. It's pretty decent.

I was among those SGU fans who really felt the use of present day music didn't fit right. It's something I even said to Martin Gero (one of the writers), who was at DragonCon during the airing of season 2.

Space based series like STAR TREK, BABYLON 5, STARGATE UNIVERSE, FARSCAPE, etc. should have orchestral music. It makes it feel more epic because it's space. Space SHOULD feel epic.

Having present day songs used in an episode doesn't make it feel epic. It also really ages the show more than using just orchestral or instrumental music.
 
That argument might work for SG1 and SGA since they were more ground based. (I don't agree with it simply because so much happens on other planets and spaceships. SGA even more so than SG1. Trying to be fair, though.)

But SGU was primarily space based because most of the show took place on the Destiny. The journey that ship was on was VERY epic, and the music should reflect that.
 
I don't think space should feel epic, I think it can feel epic. The trick is to find the right music to suit the story that's being told. Firefly had music out of a western movie, Cowboy Bebop featured jazz, Alien had a horror movie soundtrack, Guardians of the Galaxy includes pop music from the 60s and 70s, and all of them work. In fact their music works better than the sonic wallpaper that Trek was stuck with for much of the Berman era.
 
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Ron Moore talks about it a bit in this interview from some point pre-Enterprise.
"I think that is really hard for Rick and Brannon. It’s hard for them to do that, because they don’t like the original show. Let’s not mince words. They don’t like the original show. They have never liked the original show. They’ll bob and weave a bit here and there in public. But they don’t like it; they don’t want to have anything to do with it. If you are going to go before the original series and do something, you better have a change of attitude. You better have an epiphany about how much you love the original series. It’s all going to be about leading up to that."
I guess it's not actually saying they haven't ever watched all of it, though.
Reading the text version with it's lack of formatting might make people's eyes bleed but I made a text-to-speech version to listen to in the car last year, if anyone's interested. I don't agree with everything he says but I really like hearing his unfiltered thoughts on where Trek was back then.
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This would explain why ENT was developed the way it was done; it had signs of contempt for it but it's possible they were simply following what they established in FIRST CONTACT and disregarded TOS. Their TNG was a phenomenon.
 
I don't think the music needs to be a conventional orchestral score in order to be epic. A well-placed electric guitar riff can pack quite a punch in a sci-fi movie. I'm on the fence about synthesizers, though. Arguably, with movies set in the future in outer space, some effort should be made with the music to give the whole thing an otherworldly, futuristic atmosphere instead of playing it safe with a musical tradition from four hundred years ago.

Kor
 
I don't think space should feel epic, I think it can feel epic. The trick is to find the right music to suit the story that's being told. Firefly had music out of a western movie, Cowboy Bebop featured jazz, Alien had a horror movie soundtrack, Guardians of the Galaxy includes pop music from the 60s and 70s, and all of them work. In fact their music works better than the sonic wallpaper that Trek was stuck with for much of the Berman era.

You make valid points, and those are some great examples. BSG, to add another example, used a lot of drums... given the premise of just trying to survive and it being a primarily military setting, it fit perfectly.

Maybe I should explain my thought process better. STAR TREK, STARGATE, and other space shows that focus more on exploration should feel epic. The other examples you stated, while I adore each of them and agree their music suits them perfectly, are not necessarily exploration driven.
 
I was among those SGU fans who really felt the use of present day music didn't fit right. It's something I even said to Martin Gero (one of the writers), who was at DragonCon during the airing of season 2.

Space based series like STAR TREK, BABYLON 5, STARGATE UNIVERSE, FARSCAPE, etc. should have orchestral music. It makes it feel more epic because it's space. Space SHOULD feel epic.

Having present day songs used in an episode doesn't make it feel epic. It also really ages the show more than using just orchestral or instrumental music.

You make valid points, and those are some great examples. BSG, to add another example, used a lot of drums... given the premise of just trying to survive and it being a primarily military setting, it fit perfectly.

Maybe I should explain my thought process better. STAR TREK, STARGATE, and other space shows that focus more on exploration should feel epic. The other examples you stated, while I adore each of them and agree their music suits them perfectly, are not necessarily exploration driven.

I absolutely don't agree with the idea that contemporary music can't feel epic, or that they can't be used to strong effect in space opera shows. I mean, "epic" is as good a word as any to describe songs like "Next to Me" by Emeli Sandé, or "Pretty Little Head" by Eliza Rickman, or "Bad Romance" by Lady Gaga, or "Seven Nation Army" by the White Stripes, or "The Man" by the Killers, or "Heathens" by Twenty-One Pilots, or "Severed" or "The Mariner's Revenge Song" both by the Decemberists, or "Pumped Up Kicks" by Foster the People, or "Rolling in the Deep" by Adele, or "Wish I Were Here" from Next to Normal, or "The Clash at Demonhead" from Scott Pilgrim vs. the World, or "21 Guns" by Green Day, or "Call Off Your Ghosts" or "Dixon's Girl" by Dessa, or "What's Left of the Flag" by Flogging Molly, or "The Room Where It Happens" from Hamilton, or "Don't Do Sadness/Blue Wind" or "The Song of Purple Summer" from Spring Awakening, or... etc.

I think your feeling here is motivated more by the fact that it's become a convention of space opera film and TV to have soundtracks based on instrumental music, and you're more used to that convention than to the idea of using popular music.

It is true that the use of popular music can ground a program in the era in which it was made more strongly than other forms of music, but I don't think that's the same thing as aging it badly, nor do I think that's a bad thing. Dawson's Creek is indubitably a product of the late 1990s, and its theme song "I Don't Want to Wait" grounds it in that setting, but that doesn't mean it's aged badly or that its quality is any lesser. In any event, music always grounds a film or program in the era in which it was made to some extent or other. TOS uses instrumental music, but it has a very distinctive 1960s sound. TNG's music is very 1980s/early 1990s. And at least with the use of popular music, one way to avoid letting it age too badly is to use popular music from a variety of eras. Tell me with a straight face that setting a space sequence to "Kashmir" or "Immigrant Song" by Led Zepplin wouldn't be fucking epic as hell!
 
I absolutely don't agree with the idea that contemporary music can't feel epic, or that they can't be used to strong effect in space opera shows. I mean, "epic" is as good a word as any to describe songs like "Next to Me" by Emeli Sandé, or "Pretty Little Head" by Eliza Rickman, or "Bad Romance" by Lady Gaga, or "Seven Nation Army" by the White Stripes, or "The Man" by the Killers, or "Heathens" by Twenty-One Pilots, or "Severed" or "The Mariner's Revenge Song" both by the Decemberists, or "Pumped Up Kicks" by Foster the People, or "Rolling in the Deep" by Adele, or "Wish I Were Here" from Next to Normal, or "The Clash at Demonhead" from Scott Pilgrim vs. the World, or "21 Guns" by Green Day, or "Call Off Your Ghosts" or "Dixon's Girl" by Dessa, or "What's Left of the Flag" by Flogging Molly, or "The Room Where It Happens" from Hamilton, or "Don't Do Sadness/Blue Wind" or "The Song of Purple Summer" from Spring Awakening, or... etc.

I think your feeling here is motivated more by the fact that it's become a convention of space opera film and TV to have soundtracks based on instrumental music, and you're more used to that convention than to the idea of using popular music.

It is true that the use of popular music can ground a program in the era in which it was made more strongly than other forms of music, but I don't think that's the same thing as aging it badly, nor do I think that's a bad thing. Dawson's Creek is indubitably a product of the late 1990s, and its theme song "I Don't Want to Wait" grounds it in that setting, but that doesn't mean it's aged badly or that its quality is any lesser. In any event, music always grounds a film or program in the era in which it was made to some extent or other. TOS uses instrumental music, but it has a very distinctive 1960s sound. TNG's music is very 1980s/early 1990s. And at least with the use of popular music, one way to avoid letting it age too badly is to use popular music from a variety of eras. Tell me with a straight face that setting a space sequence to "Kashmir" or "Immigrant Song" by Led Zepplin wouldn't be fucking epic as hell!

Of all those songs, I've only heard "Seven Nation Army", "Bad Romance", "Rolling in the Deep", and "The Man"... and all but the first are due to my wife.

I'm a classic rock guy... anything from mid-90s backward. The Led Zeppelin somgs you mentioned... I agree with you there. I'd also also add "When the Levee Breaks", too.

Maybe my view is colored by my taste in music, but I really don't think any music from the 21st century deserves to be cdlled epic.
 
All this reminds me of John Larroquett's brilliant 1990s tragi-comedy series (The John Larroquett Show). The first season was edgy, darkly funny, intelligent and poignant. He was a recovering alcoholic bus station manager on the graveyard shift, with wonderfully snarky coworkers. Later seasons, the suits decided to lighten it up, give him a love interest, make the whole staff friends who hung out together off duty, switch to the day shift. It totally lost it's edge. Then all of a sudden Boyz II Men showed up, and the formerly snarky funny characters were all "Heeeey! It's Boyz II Men! Sing us a song!" And they fucking did, in the middle of the bus station. That was the last episode I watched. I mourn the loss of a good show.
 
Of all those songs, I've only heard "Seven Nation Army", "Bad Romance", "Rolling in the Deep", and "The Man"... and all but the first are due to my wife.

You should give them a shot! Heck, if you want something with truly epic scope, Hamilton: An American Musical is an entire musical play about the life of Alexander Hamilton, the American Revolution, the early Republic, and his deadly rivalry with Aaron Burr.

I'm a classic rock guy... anything from mid-90s backward. The Led Zeppelin somgs you mentioned... I agree with you there. I'd also also add "When the Levee Breaks", too.

There's definitely an important place for 70s rock if you're looking for epic popular music to use on a space opera program. :bolian:

Maybe my view is colored by my taste in music, but I really don't think any music from the 21st century deserves to be cdlled epic.

I think there's at least as much epic music being made today as there was in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s.
 
This is one of the reasons that Berman-era Trek (other than DS9) never made a huge and lasting impression on me. If your primary creators don't have love for the source material, right there you're in trouble, as that's going to seep into every pore of the show. DS9 had much more in common with TOS (and much more love for TOS...at least Sisko never gives a speech about how Kirk, Spock and company were cowboys who would have no place in modern Starfleet...looking at you Janeway and Picard).

The Kurtzman era does a much better job of embracing the content and spirit of the original series (and frankly, all of the series).
 
In some ways I’d agree that the modern shows are more adventure based and TOS-like in that respect. In others ways I’d disagree.

in regards to Kirk and co being cowboys, this doesn’t bother me. In 100 years society should move on. We love Kirk because he’s a TV show hero but in universe he’s a leader from a century ago. Of course he’d be out of place in TNG/VOY present. If he wasn’t it would mean Federation society had stagnated.

This is part of my issue with Disco in the far future (which overall I like as a concept). They should be cave people in comparison. It’s good fantasy for us that the future would love us (see also Buck Rogers and Demolition Man) but it’s unlikely really.

If someone turned up at one of our jobs who did the same or equivalent 100 years ago they would be next to useless for most modern professions.
 
At certain points, society changes faster than at other points. The 20th Century is a bad example to go by when looking at other times because it was so unusual. There was never such radical change so fast and so constantly before that and there probably won't be again.
 
At certain points, society changes faster than at other points. The 20th Century is a bad example to go by when looking at other times because it was so unusual. There was never such radical change so fast and so constantly before that and there probably won't be again.

Fair point, though I feel it might again once we all integrate ourselves to a digital network directly by the brain. Sounds terrifying but I’m sure it will happen.
 
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