What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[100Pic]

Alright it seems like it's come to this: DS9 characters vs Voyager characters. So the obvious matchups are:

Sisko vs Janeway
Kira vs Chakotay
O'Brien vs B'Elanna
Odo vs Tuvok
Quark vs Neelix
Bashir vs The Doctor
Jadzia vs Kim
Worf vs Seven
Ezri vs Kes
Uh, Jake vs Paris

I didn't have to think too hard to pick Kira and Quark, and to be honest I'm leaning towards DS9 with most of the others as well. Though I might pick Seven over Worf (DS9 Edition). Maybe I should've put Jake up against Seven as she's kind of like Janeway's adopted daughter.

Can we at least agree that Garak is better than Seska?

Okay, I'll bite (and may end up proving myself wrong in the process ha ha!)

Janeway > Sisko
Kira > Chakotay
B'Elanna > O'Brien
Tuvok > Odo
Quark == Neelix (even)
The Doctor > Bashir
Jadzia > Kim (an easy win for Jadzia)
Seven > Worf (agree, TNG Worf would have won)
Ezri > Kes (Ezri is always a winner in my eyes)
Paris > Jake (although pretty close)

Nope, Voyager still wins for me. I realise most will not share my opinions — each to their own.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Seven and Kira are head and shoulders above everyone else in therms of conceptual depth, complexity, and growth arc. Bashir and Doc both had a lot of untapped potential that never really bore fruit and were further undone by their creepiness. Mulgrew is a much stronger actor than Brooks but was never served well by a lot of the production desistions.

Everyone else was either interchangeable in their milquetoast mediocrity or just written too inconsistently (Dax, Paris) to matter.

 

[fireproof78]

A twist of fate is the entire premise of the Mirror Universe. If a Federation had formed instead of a Terran Empire they would've been the characters from the Prime Universe.

It's one of the best aspects of the MU and why I'll always welcome more MU stories. It's small twists and turns that make it a lot of fun.

 

[Oddish]

I'd say Jake vs. Kim, because both characters are young, just beginning their journeys.

In terms of character growth, the utterly transformed Sisko annihilates the static Janeway.
Fierce but faithful Kira likewise destroys the painfully underutilized Chakotay.
O'Brien and B'Elanna are surprisingly close.
While Tuvok is very good, I think that Odo's exotic race and the angst of him being a Founder give him a slight edge.
I actually think that Neelix's depth and past suffering give him a slight edge over Quark, who is largely comedic.
The Doc flattens Bashir, one of DS9's less interesting characters.
Jadzia's eight lifetimes supersede Paris's arc of restoration.
Jake finds his own purpose in life, and goes from boy go man. Kim is so static, he can't even get a pip on his collar.
Ezri's neurosis vs. Kes's mind powers and abbreviated lifespan... I'll call this one even.
Worf and Seven... both are the characters who popped into their series and made it better. But Worf has 11 years to draw on, vs. Seven's four. Advantage Worf, though not by a lot.
And Garak, the enigmatic and bisexual spy turned tailor, simply is more than Seska (a serviceable villain) can handle.

Total
DS9: 7
VOY: 2
Tie: 2

 

[F. King Daniel]

It's one of the best aspects of the MU and why I'll always welcome more MU stories. It's small twists and turns that make it a lot of fun.

I loved that Mirror Universe Saga in the old DC comics. That's why I love Disco's MU, it's pretty much that version of the world in live action.

"In a Mirror, Darkly" was trash. No relatable or likeable characters. People only like it for T'Pol's tummy and the TOS fanwank explosion.

DS9's mirror universe was cheap lesbian pollen and 100% geared towards getting teenage boys to watch. It also has the extremely poorly dated thread of gayness being tied with evil. And most of the episodes were crap, too.

 

[Farscape One]

"In a Mirror, Darkly" was trash. No relatable or likeable characters.

Captain Forrest sacrificed his life to get as many of his crew off his ship before it was destroyed. He went down a hero... at the very least, a likeable person.

 

[somebuddyX]

I loved that Mirror Universe Saga in the old DC comics. That's why I love Disco's MU, it's pretty much that version of the world in live action.

"In a Mirror, Darkly" was trash. No relatable or likeable characters. People only like it for T'Pol's tummy and the TOS fanwank explosion.

DS9's mirror universe was cheap lesbian pollen and 100% geared towards getting teenage boys to watch. It also has the extremely poorly dated thread of gayness being tied with evil. And most of the episodes were crap, too.

Nah, I love "In A Mirror Darkly" because it's like one of those adventures in a disposable alternate universe like TNG's "Yesterday's Enterprise", Buffy's "The Wish", SG1's "There But for the Grace of God" and even DS9's "Crossover" where they go on a little adventure, wreck shop, stack bodies and then just return to the regular show the following week. I loved it's nods to TOS like the Defiant and the Tholians and the Mirror Universe itself and Trip's face, the repurpose of First Contact footage, everyone acting like comic book villains and backstabbing each other, Captain Forrest, Mayweather's Arsenio hair and him and Reed being MACOs, over the top Archer being a whiny brat, the space battles, the fight scenes, and the ending of having the two lowest ranking members of the regular cast taking over control of the Empire. I hate the Gorn though. Give me a man in a rubber suit any day.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Alright it seems like it's come to this: DS9 characters vs Voyager characters. So the obvious matchups are:

Sisko vs Janeway

Sisko

Kira vs Chakotay

This one's pretty indisputable, right? No one would seriously pick Chakotay over Kira would they?

O'Brien vs B'Elanna

I like O'Brien a lot, but B'Elanna does have more solid character growth.

Odo vs Tuvok

This is probably the most even match-up or at least the best of the 'even' match-ups since both Odo and Tuvok are great characters. It's Odo for my money, though.

Quark vs Neelix

Again, no one would pick Neelix over Quark would they? I mean, he's not as bad as Chakotay, but still.

Bashir vs The Doctor

This is a harder one. I really liked both of them when I was younger. And really found more and more to dislike about both of them as I grew up. I guess maybe the Doctor, but this is really a case of the lesser of two evils (though 'evil' is obviously too strong a word).

Jadzia vs Kim

Jadzia easily.

Worf vs Seven

Always liked Worf a ton, but Seven wins.

Ezri vs Kes

Ezri without hesitation.

Uh, Jake vs Paris

Paris eventually grew into a more interesting character than he started as, but Jake's characterization is not only often underrated, it's also pretty unique in the franchise so I'd go with Jake.

 

[cooleddie74]

DSC is proof that a bigger and more lavish budget doesn't make a silly concept better. The MU in the newer series is shiny and expensive but it's just so lifeless outside of Georgiou and Mirror Saru. And don't get me started on the light sensitivity crap and how Gabriel Lorca was all but ruined by the MU origin reveal.

Neither DSC nor DS9 have all that much to be proud of in this arena.

 

[Phil123]

In light of some previous posts I have a possibly controversial view related to the MU.

I HATE mirror Georgiou. Within the MU she was almost bearable to watch, but back in the normal universe I couldn’t bear her. And not in the good way like how we all love to hate Kai Winn.

The concept and the execution of The Emperor are such failure for me. I was so happy when she left the series, and I hope the S31 show never materialises.

but that’s just my opinion of course. Others are valid too.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

In light of some previous posts I have a possibly controversial view related to the MU.

I HATE mirror Georgiou. Within the MU she was almost bearable to watch, but back in the normal universe I couldn’t bear her. And not in the good way like how we all love to hate Kai Winn.

The concept and the execution of The Emperor are such failure for me. I was so happy when she left the series, and I hope the S31 show never materialises.

but that’s just my opinion of course. Others are valid too.

I agree.

In fact, to add another controversial opinion, I think the earliest part of the DSC MU arc before everything degenerated into Lorca vs Georgiou, is not only the best of DSC's MU material, its vastly superior to any other MU story except - maybe - the original. For two (or was it one and a half?) glorious episodes DSC became the only show in the franchise to seriously explore the genuine drama of being forced to blend in with barbaric murderers for your own safety rather than retreating yet again into lame, meaningless camp (which is literally the only thing offered at all by the ENT ep in particular, but also most of the DS9 stuff). An argument could be made for Mirror, Mirror sort of trying it, but it was too held back by the standards of the time and the show, imo, to really sell the idea as genuinely horrific rather than just another adventure.

 

[Vger23]

Hmmm.....interesting exercise. Let me weigh-in

Sisko > Janeway
Kira > Chakotay
O'Brien > B'Elanna
Odo > Tuvok (this was my toughest one...because I love Tuvok, but this isn't a great match-up for him)
Quark > Neelix
Bashir < The Doctor
Jadzia > Kim
Worf < Seven
Ezri > Kes
Uh, Jake < Paris

I think the other thing to take into account if you're going to say one series has better characters than another is that DS9 had an unbelievable group of repeating supporting characters played by very talented people who helped flesh out that universe and bring life to the proceedings:

Dukat
Weyoun
Demar
Kai Winn
Vedek Bareil
Rom
Nog
Michael Eddington
Leeta
Vic Fontaine
Adm. Leyton
Cassidy Yates
The Founder
Zek

VOY, admittedly because of its format, did not have such an opportunity...but the repeating "supporting characters" they did have don't even come close in quality:

Icheb
Naomi Wildman
DiVinci
Michael Sullivan
Seska

So, while certainly everyone is entitled to an opinion on this completely subjective matter (and, of course this IS the "controversial opinions" thread where all bets are off!!)...I think this is a fun one to debate. Trust me, I have enough unpopular opinions about Trek to know how it feels....!

Good stuff...!

 

[plynch]

Jerome Bixby’s heirs get residuals anytime there is a MU ep?

 

[1001001]

"In a Mirror, Darkly" was trash. No relatable or likeable characters. People only like it for T'Pol's tummy and the TOS fanwank explosion.

So, you know every fan's motives for what they like and don't like, eh? Are you a mind reader? Fortune teller?

PS: In a Mirror, Darkly was great.

 

[Alexander Corrino]

So, you know every fan's motives for what they like and don't like, eh? Are you a mind reader? Fortune teller?

PS: In a Mirror, Darkly was great.

I was wondering the same, lol. I enoy those ENT mirror episodes and I'm most definitely not interested in T'Pol's tummy and I'm not much of a TOS fan either...

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Hmmm.....interesting exercise. Let me weigh-in

Sisko > Janeway
Kira > Chakotay
O'Brien > B'Elanna
Odo > Tuvok (this was my toughest one...because I love Tuvok, but this isn't a great match-up for him)
Quark > Neelix
Bashir < The Doctor
Jadzia > Kim
Worf < Seven
Ezri > Kes
Uh, Jake < Paris

I think the other thing to take into account if you're going to say one series has better characters than another is that DS9 had an unbelievable group of repeating supporting characters played by very talented people who helped flesh out that universe and bring life to the proceedings:

Dukat
Weyoun
Demar
Kai Winn
Vedek Bareil
Rom
Nog
Michael Eddington
Leeta
Vic Fontaine
Adm. Leyton
Cassidy Yates
The Founder
Zek

VOY, admittedly because of its format, did not have such an opportunity...but the repeating "supporting characters" they did have don't even come close in quality:

Icheb
Naomi Wildman
DiVinci
Michael Sullivan
Seska

So, while certainly everyone is entitled to an opinion on this completely subjective matter (and, of course this IS the "controversial opinions" thread where all bets are off!!)...I think this is a fun one to debate. Trust me, I have enough unpopular opinions about Trek to know how it feels....!

Good stuff...!

Seska was really good, imo. Just not good enough to compete with Dukat, Weyoun and Damar, etc. I also really liked Lon Suder. I would take Suder over Eddington, for instance. But, yeah, no matter how you look, comparing Voy's supporting cast to DS9's is like comparing a waterpark to the ocean.

 

[cooleddie74]

I love "In a Mirror Darkly, Parts I and II" because they're clever and fun episodes that redeemed the Mirror Universe after a slew of bad DS9 ones. Sure, there's TOS fanwank there but that's something DSC could have used a little more of.

 

[fireproof78]

Mirror Georgiou is a decent character and a prime example of the Roddenberry ideal of humanity being capable of evolution.

 

[Phil123]

Mirror Georgiou is a decent character and a prime example of the Roddenberry ideal of humanity being capable of evolution.

I'd love to agree, but I can't get past the moustache twirling. If there had been true examination of her evolution or of nature vrs nurture and everything she had done she could have been much better.

 

[fireproof78]

I'd love to agree, but I can't get past the moustache twirling. If there had been true examination of her evolution or of nature vrs nurture and everything she had done she could have been much better.

Not sure what more examining could be done.

Also, I don't care about moustache twirling. Star Trek is full of camp and Georgiou never felt out of step with Trek.